2026-08-09T13:01:00-0400 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
以下是美国国立卫生研究院主任杰伊·巴塔查里亚博士于2026年8月9日在《与玛格丽特·布伦南面对面》节目中接受采访的文字实录。
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玛格丽特·布伦南：我们现在邀请到了美国国立卫生研究院主任杰伊·巴塔查里亚博士。早上好，博士。
美国国立卫生研究院主任杰伊·巴塔查里亚博士：早上好。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我们还需要说明一下，在新的疾控中心主任宣誓就职之前，你也在协助管理疾控中心。
巴塔查里亚博士：到下周三为止，没错。
玛格丽特·布伦南：到下周三。那我来问问大家在家里会担心的几件事，尤其是食品供应方面的问题。与墨西哥进口的卷心莴苣相关的环孢子虫疫情目前已蔓延至15个州。本周已有两人因此死亡。昨日，美国农业部发布警报，提醒注意一系列可能携带沙门氏菌的产品，包括肉类和禽类。27个州受到沙门氏菌疫情影响，可能与墨西哥辣椒有关，但疾控中心的公告中还列出了香菜、红洋葱、牛油果。阿尔伯茨森超市刚刚召回了部分商品。根据疾控中心的消息，得克萨斯州出现鸡蛋沙门氏菌感染风险，此外还有螺旋蛆疫情影响牛肉产业。对于现在走进杂货店的消费者来说，这一切都让人不知所措。为什么这些疫情看起来已经失控了？
巴塔查里亚博士：嗯，这次的环孢子虫疫情规模比往年正常年份要大。我的意思是，在正常年份其实也会出现环孢子虫病例。你提到的两例死亡病例，发生在6月末、7月初，也就是我们确定传染源之前。所以，各位听众可以放心，疾控中心和食品药品监督管理局正在全力追踪这些疫情的确切源头，对相关供应商采取干预措施，确保他们不会……并通过召回行动防止疾病——也就是这种病症——进一步传播。这确实很棘手。你去杂货店买生菜，会想：“好吧，我还能买生菜吗？”
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
巴塔查里亚博士：我想对各位听众说，我们正在全力确保受污染的货源不会摆上货架。如果你感到担心，还是可以买生菜，但一定要仔细清洗。不要吃外层的叶子。如果你实在担心，那就把蔬菜做熟。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但我们没有听到食品药品监督管理局的声音。我的意思是，现在是否应该对从墨西哥中部进口的产品实施限制？看起来很多问题都能追溯到那里。
巴塔查里亚博士：是的，我认为关键在于，当我们找到受污染的源头时，就会采取干预措施。谢天谢地，我不能代表食品药品监督管理局发言。我只负责国立卫生研究院和疾控中心的工作。不过，我可以说，我在食品药品监督管理局合作过的同事们——他们是一支非常优秀的团队——正在追踪并查明这些疫情的源头。就环孢子虫疫情而言，情况比较复杂，因为从技术层面来说，比起普通细菌，要找到确切的源头要困难得多。但他们已经出色地完成了溯源工作，并且与我过去几个月领导的疾控中心团队合作，共同确定了传染源。正如你现在所了解的，这一切都得益于……
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
巴塔查里亚博士：……我们付出的艰苦努力。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但还有许多其他健康问题，包括麻疹病例数达到35年来的最高水平。疾控中心表示，在上一学年，只有10个美国州的麻疹疫苗接种率超过了95%的阈值。这一点非常关键，因为正如你所知，这是实现群体免疫、阻断传播的关键指标。你认为联邦政府需要全力以赴地向家长们传达“带孩子接种麻疹疫苗”的呼吁吗？
巴塔查里亚博士：你知道吗，作为疾控中心主任，我做的第一件事之一，大概是今年2月的时候，当时南卡罗来纳州暴发了大规模疫情，我上了——不知道上电视是不是合适的说法，但我上了镜头，建议当地家长为孩子接种麻疹疫苗，以此终结当地的麻疹疫情。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错。
巴塔查里亚博士：而南卡罗来纳州的疫情现在已经结束，部分原因就在于此。不只是美国，世界各地都暴发了多起疫情。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
巴塔查里亚博士：而这在很大程度上与公众对科学的信任崩塌有关，也就是疫情期间的公共卫生措施，原因我们可以稍后讨论。对我来说，最重要的是努力重新赢得这种信任。
玛格丽特·布伦南：没错，但为什么不……可以投放电视广告。可以开展更大规模的全国性宣传活动。值得注意的是，上周肯尼迪部长在电视上公开表示，家长应该让孩子接种麻疹疫苗，因为该疫苗预防感染的有效率约为97%。这对他来说是一个转变。如你所知，他之前并不总是这么明确。为什么不在全美各地的电视节目中大力宣传这一点呢？
巴塔查里亚博士：我的意思是，我已经尽我所能去做了。每次有人问我关于给孩子接种麻疹疫苗的问题，我都会给出完全相同的建议。保护孩子免受麻疹感染的最佳方式就是接种麻疹疫苗。你知道……
玛格丽特·布伦南：这个国家可能会失去消除麻疹的资格——
巴塔查里亚博士：加拿大、墨西哥和英国也都出现过这种情况。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但这是不可接受的，对吗？根据权威科学标准——
巴塔查里亚博士：但你知道，问题在于，
玛格丽特·布伦南：——美国医疗协会希望——
巴塔查里亚博士：——看看实际发生的情况吧，比如……疫情暴发的特定州。得克萨斯州曾暴发大规模疫情，现在已经得到控制。亚利桑那州和犹他州的大规模疫情也已得到控制。南卡罗来纳州的疫情也是如此。现在我们看到弗吉尼亚州也出现了疫情，病例数再次大幅下降，而宾夕法尼亚州则是……特定社区的人群感染风险最高，我们需要重点关注这些社区，同时也要传递更广泛的信息：如果我们想要控制麻疹疫情，儿童接种麻疹疫苗非常重要。
玛格丽特·布伦南：这就是我提到群体免疫的原因，因为这会让所有人都面临风险，对吗？
巴塔查里亚博士：没错。
玛格丽特·布伦南：不只是民众。说到这个问题，你上周去了亚特兰大。今年是疾控中心总部发生枪击惨剧一周年。警官大卫·罗斯于本周获得追授荣誉，他去年为保护疾控中心员工免受枪手袭击而牺牲。我们需要说明一下，他是一名退伍老兵，曾是美国海军陆战队队员，在枪击事件发生前五个月刚从警校毕业。他留下了三个孩子。枪手的动机是关于新冠疫苗的错误信息。正是这个原因，他向疾控中心的窗户发射了超过100发子弹。目前是否正在采取足够措施来对抗这类错误信息？
巴塔查里亚博士：我的意思是，首先我得说，几个月前我和罗斯警官的妻子进行了交谈。我做的第一件事之一就是……为了纪念他和他为保护疾控中心工作人员所做出的牺牲，疾控中心那些了不起的工作人员，我们……将通往疾控中心的那条街道以他的名字重新命名，那是一个非常感人的仪式。我想说，我想重点关注罗斯警官，因为我认为……枪手的行为是极其恶劣的，你可以讨论枪手为什么会这么做，但从根本上来说——
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，他的父亲说他被关于新冠疫苗的错误信息洗脑了，认为疫苗会让他自杀。这就是他……
巴塔查里亚博士：我的意思是，问题在于，谈论枪手会……
玛格丽特·布伦南：——他的动机是他在扬言要袭击疾控中心时说的话。
巴塔查里亚博士：——把重点放在了……我的意思是，我们不应该把重点放在——
玛格丽特·布伦南：不，我是在说疫苗相关的错误信息。
巴塔查里亚博士：我的意思是，关键问题在于，公众对公共卫生的信任出现了流失，部分原因是很多——坦率地说，甚至在——甚至在这个电视台和其他电视台，在新冠疫情期间都有一种特定的观点被传播，这导致了一些确实对人们造成伤害的事情。学校停课可能是最主要的因素，那——那——那……
玛格丽特·布伦南：这种说法没有建设性。我们节目在新冠疫情方面的报道深度是其他周日访谈节目无法比拟的。
巴塔查里亚特博士：我不是在特指你。我的意思是，你想谈论错误信息吗？疫情期间的各种决策以及公共卫生部门的公众形象，导致了许多人对公共卫生失去信任。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是特朗普政府的官员们。
巴塔查里亚博士：不，我是说——比如拜登政府。举个例子，拜登政府审查了我的言论——
玛格丽特·布伦南：疫情是在特朗普政府期间开始的，我们也邀请了那些官员上节目。
巴塔查里亚博士：但——但是在——在——我们先明确一下，拜登政府审查了我的言论，对吗？他们审查了——他们直接攻击那些在新冠问题上——在——关于新冠疫苗是否能阻止……
玛格丽特·布伦南：小罗伯特·肯尼迪称新冠疫苗是有史以来最致命的疫苗。
[交叉谈话]
玛格丽特·布伦南：那就是错误信息，我们对此没有明确说明。我认为这很危险。你不同意吗？
巴塔查里亚博士：玛格丽特，人们因此丢了工作，因为拜登政府审查了人们的言论，并称：“听着，你甚至不能谈论新冠疫苗的危害——”
玛格丽特·布伦南：——我们在谈论一起枪击事件。
巴塔查里亚博士：没错，而我是在谈论为什么会出现你之前谈到的那种对公共卫生的信任危机。这种信任危机不是特朗普总统造成的，也不是鲍比（小罗伯特·肯尼迪）造成的，而是由很多——非常根本性的——
玛格丽特·布伦南：错误信息——
巴塔查里亚博士：是的，但这些错误信息往往是由政府本身传播的，比如关于自然免疫、学校停课、口罩令，人们因为这些完全不符合公共卫生逻辑的疫苗 mandates 而丢了工作。所以，如果你想谈论公众信任问题，就必须全面正视这个问题，对吗？不能只从狭隘的政治角度来看待。
玛格丽特·布伦南：我在谈论的是疾控中心发生的枪击事件和一位警官，你刚才说你刚去参加了追授仪式。这才是我在谈论的内容。你完全在说别的事情。
巴塔查里亚博士：不，不，你是想——坦率地说——
玛格丽特·布伦南：我还问了你关于巩固公共……[听不清]——
巴塔查里亚博士：——你想说的是，你试图将枪击事件归咎于鲍比。
玛格丽特·布伦南：不，我没有。我只是在转述他父亲的话。
巴塔查里亚博士：不，你所说的——你所暗示的是，公众信任的缺失
玛格丽特·布伦南：我不是在谈论他。我是在谈论你的到访。
巴塔查里亚博士：是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南：以及目前是否正在采取足够措施。
巴塔查里亚博士：我认为这非常令人遗憾——
玛格丽特·布伦南：既然你想要重建公众信任，那就告诉我你现在正在做什么，因为《华盛顿邮报》和彭博社报道称，白宫正在准备一项关于疫苗与自闭症的行政命令。这项命令将会规定什么？它将会做什么？既然我知道你正在开展针对可能导致自闭症的诸多潜在因素的研究，那为什么白宫只宣布关注这一个问题？
巴塔查里亚博士：嗯，我——我的意思是——我得去问问总统关于这项行政命令的具体细节——
玛格丽特·布伦南：因为这将会——
巴塔查里亚博士：——关于这项行政命令的细节。我来告诉你我们正在做什么——
玛格丽特·布伦南：你认为这能重建公众对疫苗的信任吗？
巴塔查里亚博士：不管这项行政命令的目的是什么——我的意思是，你可以去问问总统关于这项行政命令的事情，但我可以告诉你，总统非常关心，鲍比也是如此，自闭症患病率的上升。我知道你也是。美国各地有那么多家庭……他们曾经……面临着——
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
巴塔查里亚博士：——这些问题，对吗？
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的，他们想要真实的信息。
巴塔查里亚博士：所以，作为国立卫生研究院主任，我一直专注于确保我们拥有能够解答这个——关于为什么自闭症患病率上升的复杂问题的科学研究。答案不会很简单。去年我批准了一项名为“自闭症数据科学倡议”的项目。几周后，我们将会公布由十多个受资助的科学团队开展的早期研究的初步结果，这些团队的研究范围非常广泛，不仅包括基因，还包括——不只是环境暴露，还有潜在的相互作用。我不知道——作为一名科学家，如果你问我是否知道自闭症患病率上升的原因，我可以告诉你，我不知道答案。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
巴塔查里亚博士：而这个问题常常被和“是不是疫苗导致的？”联系在一起。不是疫苗。这只会向科学家们传递一个信号：如果你在这个课题上的研究得出了“错误”的答案，你就会被摧毁。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的。
巴塔查里亚博士：我已经尽了最大的努力。重建公众信任的方式是允许人们畅所欲言、独立思考，不受这种政治干扰。作为国立卫生研究院主任，我一直在尽最大努力确保这种情况能够发生——
玛格丽特·布伦南：这对科学来说至关重要。这就是为什么我要问，总统发布一项专门针对某个似乎是先入为主的观念的命令，这会如何——
巴塔查里亚博士：你太着急下结论了。我的意思是，我不知道这项行政命令的具体内容，你也不知道。所以它还——
玛格丽特·布伦南：嗯，有意思的是你也不知道。我的同事马特·古特曼上周在哥伦比亚广播公司采访时问过你，你是否认为疫苗会导致自闭症。你说你不确定。你说没有证据表明任何疫苗会导致自闭症，但你也没有证据表明疫苗不会导致自闭症。家长们正准备送孩子返校。
[交叉谈话]
巴塔查里亚博士：好的，所以我只想非常清楚地说明我实际上说过的话。
玛格丽特·布伦南：请说明清楚。家长们是否可以相信，当医生建议他们带孩子接种疫苗以便返校时，他们可以放心去做？
巴塔查里亚博士：我认为——我认为——对于大多数孩子来说，尤其是麻疹疫苗、百白破疫苗以及所有标准的儿童疫苗，家长给孩子接种疫苗非常重要。至于他们是否可以放心送孩子返校，我稍微纠正一下，在新冠疫情期间让家长担心送孩子上学是一个巨大的错误。孩子们在学校里会过得更好。我们不应该吓唬公众——
玛格丽特·布伦南：我在谈论的是现在的情况。现在是八月，即将到九月，孩子们要返校了——
[交叉谈话]
巴塔查里亚博士：是的，但玛格丽特，你在谈论的——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——不是2020年的情况。我在谈论的是2026年。
巴塔查里亚博士：——你在谈论的——我们在谈论的是——为什么人们会——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——需要联邦政府给出明确信息——
巴塔查里亚博士：好的，我们先明确一下——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——以及最高卫生官员的——
巴塔查里亚博士：如果你想要明确的信息，让我给你一些明确的答案。
玛格丽特·布伦南：请讲。
巴塔查里亚博士：公众信任出现问题的原因是2020年发生的事情至今仍未得到正视——
玛格丽特·布伦南：这些家长可以相信你以及你给出的建议，让他们——
巴塔查里亚博士：是的，我认为——我的意思是——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——带孩子接种疫苗？
巴塔查里亚博士：——家长们应该信任我。我的意思是，我正在给出我的建议。我给自己的孩子接种了疫苗。我不认为这是——如果你想保护孩子免受这些——这些——可预防疾病的侵袭，是的，你应该给孩子接种疫苗。但更重要的是，这些孩子应该去上学。无论如何，都绝不能让本节目或其他类似节目助长这样一种观点，即“送孩子去学校会更糟，因为可能会接触到未接种疫苗的孩子”，这根本就不是事实，对吗？如果你想保护孩子免受这些——这些可预防疾病的风险，那就给孩子接种疫苗。我在这一点上已经说得非常、非常清楚了。但如果你散布恐慌，说“哦，如果你送孩子去学校，可能会接触到未接种疫苗的孩子”，这就是一个错误，而且会加剧公众信任的缺失。那——那是一个——巨大的错误，对吗？如果你给孩子接种了疫苗，你就可以保护孩子免受这些——这些——风险的影响，不管是什么风险。无论如何，送孩子去学校对孩子更好，因为这才能让孩子们保持健康。
玛格丽特·布伦南：是的，我们都想送孩子去学校。
巴塔查里亚博士：所以，正视2020年发生的事情也是重建信任的一部分。
玛格丽特·布伦南：好的。
巴塔查里亚博士：如果你想知道为什么公众信任会流失，你就必须全面正视这个问题。
玛格丽特·布伦南：但我理解你的意思是，你现在相信科学、医疗工作者和疫苗了，这就是我们可以——
巴塔查里亚博士：我的意思是，我相信科学。我的意思是，我已经查看了科学证据——
玛格丽特·布伦南：——就此结束采访吧。
巴塔查里亚博士：——而且证据有很多。我个人也根据这些证据为我的家人做了决定，所以——
玛格丽特·布伦南：这很好。谢谢。我们的时间快不够了，就先到这里吧。稍后我们会回来。
National Institutes of Health Director Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” Aug. 9, 2026
2026-08-09T13:01:00-0400 / CBS News
The following is the transcript of an interview with National Institutes of Health Director Dr. Jay Bhattacharya that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Aug. 9, 2026.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by the Director of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. Good morning to you, doctor.
NIH DIRECTOR DR. JAY BHATTACHARYA: Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we should mention you are also helping to run the CDC until the new director is sworn in as well.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Until next Wednesday, yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Until next Wednesday. So let me ask you about a number of things that I think people at home are worried about, particularly around the food supply. The cyclospora outbreak linked to iceberg lettuce from Mexico is now in 15 states. There were two deaths this week due to it. Yesterday, USDA issued an alert for a range of products that may have salmonella, including meat and poultry. 27 states are affected by salmonella, possibly linked to jalapeños, but cilantro, red onion, avocado, also listed in the CDC notice. Albertsons, a grocery store, just recalled some items. There’s risk of salmonella in eggs in Texas, according to the CDC, and then you have the screwworm outbreak affecting beef. This is overwhelming for someone going into a grocery store right now. Why do they seem out of control?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Well, the- the cyclospora outbreak is larger than in normal years. I mean, in normal years there actually is a- cyclospora cases. The- the two deaths that you mentioned, they happened in late July- late- late June, early July, before we identified this source. And so, folks that are listening, can rest assured, the CDC and the FDA are working hard to trace back exactly where these outbreaks are occurring from, intervening with the- the sort of suppliers to make sure that they don’t- and doing recalls to make sure that the disease doesn’t- the, you know, condition doesn’t spread. I mean, it’s tough. You go to grocery store, you buy lettuce, and you say, “Okay, can I buy the lettuce?”
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: And what I say to folks listening, we’re working hard to make sure that the contaminated sources don’t get onto the shelves. And if you’re worried, you can buy that- buy the lettuce, but make sure you wash it carefully. You don’t eat outer leaves. And if you’re really worried, just, you know, cook your vegetables.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But we’re not hearing from the FDA. I mean, should there be a restriction on imports from central Mexico right now? It seems like a lot of things are tied back.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Yeah, I mean, I think the key thing is that when we find a contaminated source, we intervene. I can’t speak for the FDA, thank God. It’s just the NIH and the CDC. But, but, but I can say that- that the folks who I have worked with at the FDA are- they’re great team of folks that are- they’re tracking back and finding the source of these outbreaks. And for cyclospora specifically, it’s complicated because for technical reasons, it’s much- it’s more difficult than if it was just a bacteria to find the exact source. But they’ve done a great job finding it, and they’ve been cooperating with the CDC team that I’ve led the last few months to try to identify the source, and you know, it’s- what we know now is because–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –of that hard work that’s gone on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: –But there are also a number of other health issues, including measles cases now at their highest level in 35 years. The CDC says only 10 U.S. states have measles vaccine coverage rates above the 95% threshold in the prior school year. That is so key because that is, as you know, a marker for basically a way to stop transmission, herd immunity. Do you believe that the federal government needs to make a really full-throated push to tell parents, ‘go get your kids vaccinated with the MMR vaccine?’
DR. BHATTACHARYA: You know, one of the first things I did as CDC director, I think it was back in February of this year, was that there was a big outbreak in South Carolina, and I went on to- went on- I don’t know if TV is the right word, but I went on camera and I recommended that the best way to end the measles outbreak there was to have their parents vaccinate their kids for measles.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: And the outbreak has now ended in South Carolina in part because of that. There’s been a lot of- a lot of outbreaks, not just the United States, but around the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: And you know, a lot of that has to do with sort of a collapse in sort of public trust in a lot of science, you know, public health measures that occurred during the pandemic for reasons we can- we can discuss. For me the most important thing is to try to regain that trust.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but why not- you can have TV ads. You can have something that’s more of a national push. It was notable last week that Secretary Kennedy went on television and did say parents should get kids vaccinated for measles because it’s effective at preventing infection roughly 97% of the time. That was a change for him. He has not always been that clear, as you know. Why not blast that across the airwaves of America?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I mean, I think that I’ve done my best to try to do that. Every time anyone’s asked me about vaccinating their kids for measles, I say exactly that. That the best way to protect your kids from measles is to get the vaccine for- for measles. You know–
MARGARET BRENNAN: This country is going to lose its measles elimination status–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: As did Canada, as did Mexico, as did the UK.
MARGARET BRENNAN : But that’s not acceptable, right? The gold standard science–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: But you know, I think the thing is,
MARGARET BRENNAN: –that MAHA wants to–
DR. BHATTACHARYA:–if you look at the actual- what’s happened, like the- the- there’s specific states where you’ve had these outbreaks. Big, big outbreak in Texas, which has now been addressed. Big outbreak in Arizona and Utah, that’s been addressed. South Carolina, that’s been addressed. Now, what we saw was an outbreak in Virginia, again coming down sharply, and now Pennsylvania- is specific communities of people that have- that are the highest risk that we have to focus on, as well as the broader sort of message that it’s important for children to be vaccinated for the measles if we want to address the measles outbreak.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that’s why I brought up herd immunity because it puts everyone at risk, right?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Not just people. But on- on this issue, you were down in Atlanta this past week. This is one year since that horrific shooting at CDC headquarters. Officer David Rose was honored this past week. He was killed last year protecting CDC employees from a gunman. And we should note he was a combat veteran, a United States Marine who had just graduated five months prior from the police academy. Three kids left behind. The shooter was motivated by misinformation about the COVID vaccine. That is why he shot over 100 bullets into the windows of the CDC. Is enough being done to counter this kind of misinformation?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I mean, I should start with- I got to talk with Officer Rose’s wife a few months back. The- one of the first things I did is I- you know, to honor him and his sacrifice in protecting the people that work at the CDC, the amazing people who work the CDC was we, you know, renamed the street that leads into the CDC after him, and it was a really nice event. I’ll tell you the- the thing is I want to focus on attention on Officer Rose because I don’t- I think the shooter did was horrific, and I think the- you know, you can talk about why shooters do things, but really fundamentally–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, his father said he was brainwashed about the COVID vaccine and thought it was making him suicidal. That’s what his–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I mean the thing is, it’s like- to talk about the shooter puts the–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –motivation was when he said he was going to shoot up the CDC.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –emphasis on somebody who’s- I mean, I think we shouldn’t be putting our emphasis on–
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, I am on misinformation about vaccines.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I mean, I think the key- the key thing is there’s a loss of public trust in public health that happened in part because of a lot of- frankly, even- even- even on this network and on other networks, there was a particular single point of view put across during the COVID pandemic about how, you know, that led to things that really did cause harm to people. The school closures are probably the number one thing that- that- that–
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is not a productive line of claims. We covered COVID in depth on this program, like no other Sunday show did.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I’m not blaming you specifically. What I’m saying is, you want to talk about misinformation? The- the- the- the kinds of decisions and sort of the public sort of face of public health during the pandemic led to many people losing trust in public health.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Trump administration officials.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: No, I mean- I mean, like Biden. So Biden, for instance, censored me–
MARGARET BRENNAN: The pandemic began under the Trump administration, and we put those officials on our air.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: But- but during the- during the- just so we’re clear, the Biden administration censored me, right? They censored- they sent out direct attacks on people who disagreed on- on- on the COVID- on- on sort of whether the COVID vaccine stopped–
MARGARET BRENNAN: RFK Jr. called the COVID vaccine the deadliest vaccine ever made.
[CROSSTALK]
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is misinformation, and we’re not being clear about that. And I think that is dangerous. Wouldn’t you agree?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: People lost their jobs, Margaret, because the- the Biden administration censored people and said, “Look, you can’t even talk about COVID vaccine harms.–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –We’re talking about a shooting.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Yeah, and I’m talking about why you have the the kind of distrust that’s led to the kind of sort of problems that you’re talking- we were talking about earlier in public health. That distrust was not caused by President Trump, it wasn’t caused by Bobby. It was caused by a lot of- sort of really fundamental–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Misinformation–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Yeah, but often spread by the government itself regarding natural immunity, closures of schools, closures- of mask mandates, people lost their jobs because of these vaccine mandates that didn’t make any public health sense. So, if you want to talk about public trust, you have to embrace that fully, right? You can’t just talk about it in a narrow political way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m talking about a shooting at the CDC and an officer, you said you just went to honor. That’s what I was talking about. You’re talking about something else entirely.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: No, no, you’re trying to- you’re trying to- just to be blunt–
MARGARET BRENNAN: I also asked you about the shoring up public [inaud]–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –What you’re talking about is you’re trying to blame the shooting on Bobby.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, I’m not. I’m reading you what his father said.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: No, what you’re reading, what you’re- what you’re saying- what you’re implying is that somehow the lack of public trust
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m not talking about him. I’m talking about your visit.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And is enough being done.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I think it’s really unfortunate–
MARGARET BRENNAN Since you want to restore public trust, tell me what you’re doing now, because the Washington Post and Bloomberg reported the White House is preparing an executive order on vaccines and autism. What is it going to prescribe? What is it going to do? Why are we seeing another announcement here when I know you are launching research into a plethora of issues that are contributing factors potentially to autism. Why would the White House be saying only look at this thing?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Well, I don’t- I mean- I would have to ask the president about the specifics–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because that is going to–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –of the executive order. I tell you want we’re doing–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think that’s restoring trust in vaccines?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: The- the purpose of the- whatever the- I mean I- you can ask the president about the executive order, but I’ll tell you what the- the focus of the president has been–
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t know about the executive order?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I- I don’t- I won’t be able to tell you specifically what’s on it because I don’t think it’s done yet. But you can ask the president about it. What I can tell you is that the president cares deeply, as does Bobby, about the rise in autism. I know you do as well. There’s so many families around the country that- that have- that have had, you know, have faced the–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –issues of this, right?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, and they want real information.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: And so I, as NIH director, have been focused on making sure that we have science that addresses that- that very complicated question about why we’ve seen a rise in autism. It’s not going to be a simple answer. And I- last year I authorized something called the Autism Data Science Initiative. We’re going to have a big, sort of, early, sort of- sort of, results from it in a couple of weeks from the- the dozen and more scientific teams that have been funded to look at this, with a mandate of thinking very broadly, not just genes, not- not just environmental exposures, but potential interactions. We don’t know- if you ask me as a scientist, do I know why we’ve seen this rise in autism? I’ll tell you, I don’t know the answer to that question.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: And the fact that it gets so tied up with, okay, is it- is it vaccines? Not vaccines. It- what it does is it sends a signal to the scientists that if you work on this topic, you’re going to get destroyed if you get the- the wrong answer.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I- I tried my hardest. The way you build public trust is allow people to talk and think without that kind of sort of political overlay. I’ve tried my very hardest as the NIH director to make- to allow that to happen–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which is so key for science. Which is why I’m asking why the president putting out an order specifically focused on one, what seems to be preconceived notion, how that would–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: You’re jumping ahead. I mean, I don’t know exactly what’s in this executive order and neither do you. So it’s- it’s not yet–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it’s- it’s interesting that you don’t. My colleague Matt Gutman here at CBS asked you last week whether you think vaccines cause autism. You said you don’t know for certain. You said there isn’t evidence that any vaccine causes autism, but you also don’t have evidence that vaccines do not. Parents are preparing to send their kids back to school.
[CROSSTALK]
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Okay, so just- I just want to be very clear what I actually said.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Please be clear. Should parents trust that they can go vaccinate their kids when their doctor tells them to do so for them to go back to school?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I think- I think that- that parents, for most kids, especially for the measles vaccines, the DTP, all the standard childhood vaccines, it’s very important that parents vaccinate their kids. As far as can they feel confident sending back to schools, you know, I just- just to push back some, it was a tremendous mistake to cause parents to fear that- about sending their kids to school during the COVID pandemic. The kids were better off in school. We shouldn’t be scaring public–
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m talking about what people do now. It’s August, about to be September, kids are going back to school–
[CROSSTALK]
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Yeah, but Margaret you’re talking about the–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –not talking about 2020. I’m talking about 2026.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –you’re talking about- we’re talking about the- why people have–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –clarity from the federal government–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Okay just so we’re clear–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –and the top health official–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: If you want clarity, let me give you some clarity.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Please.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: The reason why you have this problem of public trust is because what happened in 2020 has not yet been addressed–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can these parents trust you and the recommendation that they should–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: Yeah, I think- I mean- the–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –go get their kids vaccinated?
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –the parents should be trusting me. I mean, I’m giving my recommendation. I vaccinated my kids. I don’t think that it is a- I think if you want to protect your kids from these- these- these sort of preventable diseases, yes, you should vaccinate your kids. But it is even more important that these kids go to school. That in no way, shape, or form should this show or any other show like it perpetuate the idea that- that sending their kids to school is worse because there’s going to be some health risk there when it’s just not true, right? If you want to protect your kids from those- those preventable diseases, vaccinate your kids. I’ve been very, very clear about that. But it is- it is a mistake, and it contributes to the lack of public trust if you sort of fearmonger around, ‘oh, if you send your kids to school, well, you might be around unvaccinated kids.’ That’s- that’s a- that’s a tremendous mistake, right? If you vaccinate your kids, you can protect your kids from those- those- those risks, whatever they are. In- in any case, it’s better to send the kids to school because that’s how you keep kids healthy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, we want to send our kids to school.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: So, but now addressing what happened in 2020 is part of that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: If you want to say why there’s this loss of public trust, you have to really wrap your arms around that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you trust the science and the health workers and the vaccines now, is what I understood you were saying, and so that is the message that I think we can–
DR. BHATTACHARYA: I mean, I trust the science. I mean, I’ve looked at the scientific evidence–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –end on here.
DR. BHATTACHARYA: –and there’s lots. I mean, I personally have made decisions for my family around those lines too, so–
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s good to know. Thank you. We’re going to leave it there because I know we’re running out of time. We’ll be back in a moment.
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