2026年11月8日 / 美国东部时间下午2点16分 / CBS新闻
以下是对罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 junior 卫生部长前高级顾问卡利·米恩斯的完整采访 transcript，其中部分内容于2026年11月8日在《玛格丽特·布伦南面对全国》节目中播出。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 卡利，谢谢你来接受我们采访。特朗普总统宣布幕僚长苏西·威尔士已离开白宫。她的离职恰逢共和党在中期选举中遭遇惨败。而且你还公开了一些非常具体的腐败指控，并呼吁进行大清洗。你的本意是想让她下台吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 是的。我认为特朗普总统已被那些依附于特殊利益集团、而非特朗普竞选纲领或选民投票诉求的人所阻挠。我在白宫领导着“MAHA”倡议。斯蒂芬·米勒最近在演讲中提到，MAHA的核心是：我们是唯一会出现儿童癌症和高发病率的灵长类动物，这显然与环境有关，与农药有关，与这方面有关——儿童70%的饮食是超加工食品，因为我们不常晒太阳。这些都是最基本的道理。我认为这正是MAHA运动的核心，也是特朗普竞选纲领的核心。这些都是非常简单的道理，美国人民投票要求改变这些现状。而我认为，很多时候，在特朗普眼皮底下，有一群前说客迎合 vaping 行业、超加工食品行业、制药行业和农药行业，打着“我们需要他们的钱用于中期选举”的幌子，违背选民意愿，声称“我们确实需要他们的钱”。他们就是这么说的。我认为这——
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——“他们”是谁？
卡利·米恩斯： 苏西和她的团伙。苏西和理查德·沃尔特斯，其实大多数人不认识他，但他是美国最有权势的人之一，是苏西接受癌症治疗期间的实际幕僚长。还有沃克·巴雷特和詹姆斯·布莱尔，这些人紧密勾结，明确迎合特殊利益集团，违背选民意愿。我认为很多事都是在特朗普不完全知情的情况下发生的。我觉得特朗普总统并不知道他的一些顾问在收受我们本应与之抗争的行业的钱。当时他们给出明确的政策建议——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 直接收钱？
卡利·米恩斯： 当然，是直接收钱。托尼·法布里齐奥——
（注：理查德·沃尔特斯告诉CBS新闻，他已于周五提交辞呈。苏西·威尔士告诉CBS新闻，特朗普总统“为MAHA做出了比以往任何总统，甚至未来可能的总统都要多的贡献”。）
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——他是民意调查专家。（对话重叠）
卡利·米恩斯： ——他是美国最有权势的人之一。所有内阁部长都在谋划如何说服托尼·法布里齐奥接受他们的政策立场，因为任何政策都要经过托尼·法布里齐奥的政治审核。他每周都待在白宫。而且——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 他经营着白宫依赖的外部民调公司。
卡利·米恩斯： 是啊，但那只是个名号——我是说，他是白宫政策制定中最有影响力的人物之一，是美国最有权势的人之一，对任何政策的推进都有很大的话语权。当他对推进健康食品、学校午餐改革、挑战农药行业、挑战特朗普曾承诺的大型制药企业这类举措的政治可行性发表看法时，他当时正在收取辉瑞或百事的报酬。直到现在，这信息还挂在他的网站上。我最近刚参加乔·罗根的播客，我们调出他的网站查看，那信息现在还挂着。他还在招揽客户，并把这些客户列为其服务对象。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以你觉得他的所有民调都不可靠了？
卡利·米恩斯： 我只是在陈述事实。我只是在——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但这就是你提出的理论。
卡利·米恩斯： 是的，我只是在陈述一个事实：我们当时试图推动一项获得90%支持的定义超加工食品的政策，他却表示“这事得不偿失”，还建议放弃，而他当时正受雇于百事。
（注：在《面对全国》节目结束后，托尼·法布里齐奥发表了以下声明：“任何能上网、花几分钟时间的人都能找到充分证据，证明卡利·米恩斯所谓‘我受大型制药公司指使’的指控不仅荒谬，而且完全不实……我甚至鼓励国会共和党议员推行MFN（最惠国待遇）相关竞选主张，这会损害大型制药公司的利润。”）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我想稍后再具体聊聊超加工食品，因为这是你推动的重要健康倡议。但我想先就腐败这个话题问你。你参加乔·罗根的播客，提出了很多这类指控。
卡利·米恩斯： 这都是事实陈述，是我在领导MAHA议程期间的亲身经历。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 总统知道你要这么做吗？你认为你公开提出这些指控是苏西·威尔士离职的原因吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 我不知道。我知道总统和乔·罗根关系密切，欣赏他的观点。大家可以去看这个播客。我鼓励大家都去看，里面有细节和事实陈述。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 因为她是周四辞职的。
卡利·米恩斯： 但我认为特朗普总统，我无法揣测他的想法，但从他提拔斯蒂芬·米勒这一点来说——我是站在我的角度，站在MAHA的角度说——斯蒂芬·米勒比我见过的任何政府官员都更懂我们政治体系中的企业俘获问题，尤其是在医疗领域。他是真心想对抗特殊利益集团。我认为他向特朗普总统提出了一个主张：我们要回归竞选承诺，坚持美国优先原则，而特朗普为了成为一名有作为的历史性总统，曾遭遇枪击并承受了巨大压力。我们要脱离由苏西所在的游说集团操控的政策流程，转向美国优先的政策流程。我觉得这就是斯蒂芬·米勒想做的，也是特朗普总统认同的。所以我认为，特朗普推动苏西下台、提拔斯蒂芬·米勒是一个大胆的举动，我觉得这对美国来说是个很好的信号。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以你和非常亲近的HHS部长RFK Jr.（罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 junior）曾说：“斯蒂芬·米勒是政府中最强的MAHA支持者。是时候释放‘克拉肯’（指应对重大挑战）了。”你认为这话是什么意思？
卡利·米恩斯： 我觉得这话实际是说给共和党和民主党听的。“释放克拉肯”意思是做对美国人民重要的事。在医疗领域，这些事情完全是跨党派的。正如你所说，我几乎每天都和RFK Jr.在一起，陪他的时间比大多数人都多。他的主张和对团队的要求，正是民主党一直在推行的政策，那就是对抗企业俘获、对抗腐败、约束大型制药企业激励机制、让我们的食品更健康。这就是他要求团队做的。坦白说，如果大家能看到他的工作重心，肯定会感到惊讶。他试图推动的这些都是普遍且非常受欢迎的想法。所以“释放克拉肯”的意思是，要理解美国人民感受到的痛苦和挫折。我认为我们的体制正濒临崩溃，美国人民对华盛顿特区的腐败感到不满。特朗普总统已指出了这个问题。我认为这意味着政府是开放的，有机会真正完成一些不涉及党派、而是结构性的大事。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 关于这一点，我理解你认为斯蒂芬·米勒是这个事业的盟友，但作为华盛顿的操盘手，他对民主党来说是个“烫手山芋”。他们已经呼吁解雇他了。他是在中期选举中不受欢迎的大规模驱逐政策的设计师。你为什么认为他真的能帮你在这个事业上取得进展？
卡利·米恩斯： 特朗普总统未来两年仍在任。未来两年将是美国历史上最重要的两年。我认为我们都该意识到，我们的问题不是“要不要特朗普”，也不是“要不要斯蒂芬·米勒”，而是华盛顿体制内的腐败，这一点特朗普总统和斯蒂芬·米勒都清楚。在移民问题上，我们可以达成很多共识，虽然这不是我的领域。我要说，很多民调显示，边境危机确实解决了，斯蒂芬·米勒做到了。这是核心竞选承诺，是关乎存亡的问题。他非常有能力，大幅降低了边境数据。所以我可以从MAHA的角度来说话。我们来谈谈医疗。斯蒂芬·米勒想和RFK Jr.及特朗普总统一起完成具有变革性的事情，这些事情不涉及党派，而是结构性的。他想做的是伊丽莎白·沃伦、阿卜杜勒·埃尔-赛义德和其他一些人在竞选时提出的事情。我认为有一个重要的机会可以共同完成一些大事，说实话，这些事我们必须做。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以你本周早些时候说，你认为总统取得进展的最佳机会是与伯尼·桑德斯和当选议员阿卜杜勒·埃尔-赛义德合作。你提到了伊丽莎白·沃伦，你觉得在这种环境下这些事情怎么推进？最可行的措施是什么？
卡利·米恩斯： 我认为有一些具体的法案和具体的问题，他们说的都是同一件事。斯蒂芬·米勒、特朗普总统和RFK Jr.想解决的问题是：我们在医疗上的支出是其他发达国家的两到三倍，却活得更短。这显然就是腐败。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但政府推动的是——（对话重叠）
卡利·米恩斯： ——制药价格——（对话重叠）
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——一项削减保费和医疗补助（Medicaid）资金的共和党法案——（对话重叠）
卡利·米恩斯： 我认为斯蒂芬·米勒和RFK Jr.会非常乐意与民主党、与不依附特殊利益集团的共和党人（比如约翰·图恩）会面，就药品定价、超加工食品标签、FDA更透明的流程等具体议题达成明确的进展，确保我们有权威的科学依据。要知道，美国人口占世界4%，却使用了全球20%的除草剂和农药，而最近美国环保署（EPA）对草甘膦的审查被推翻，因为存在 ghost-written（代笔）研究，表明拜耳曾向EPA官员行贿。我们能推动EPA改革吗？
玛格丽特·布伦南： 这是一种与癌症相关的除草剂。
卡利·米恩斯： 是的，所以我认为他们会很乐意伸出手去完成大事。他们想完成大事。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你告诉乔·罗根，如果你是特殊利益集团，你会付钱给苏西·威尔士的女儿来办成事。你说的具体是哪项政策？你是什么意思？
卡利·米恩斯： 玛格丽特，包括你在内的所有人都知道这事是怎么运作的。他们知道大陆策略公司（Continental Strategies）的收入不是从0涨到3000万美元的——
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——这是一家政治游说公司——（对话重叠）
卡利·米恩斯： ——绝不是偶然。苏西曾任职的巴拉德伙伴（Ballard Partners）成为人类历史上收入最高的游说公司，这绝非偶然。给这些公司钱的那些企业不是在做无意义的事。更多的人应该，我鼓励更多人说出真相。特朗普在竞选期间说了真话，而苏西营造的这种文化把美国人民当傻子，而且坦率地说，经常把特朗普当傻子。显然，大陆策略公司的收入暴增与凯蒂·威尔士在那里工作有关。举个例子：最近有人看到凯蒂在一个反美的亲俄政府——塞族共和国（Republika Srpska），而那个国家的领导人随后神奇地与苏西会面，还获得了豁免。她当时和詹姆斯·布莱尔、克里斯·拉西维塔一起去的，这两人在这个领域很有影响力，在负责中期选举策略时，他们最近收了数十万美元，出卖特朗普换取外国资金。他们没告诉特朗普。据我了解，他们得告诉苏西吧？而苏西显然批准了。（苏西·威尔士告诉CBS新闻，她没有提前得知布莱尔前往塞族共和国的行程。詹姆斯·布莱尔也告诉CBS新闻，他没有提前告知威尔士自己的行程。理查德·沃尔特斯告诉CBS新闻，苏西·威尔士是通过第三方提前得知拉西维塔前往塞族共和国的行程。）
但他们没告诉特朗普，这就是出卖特朗普。我可以向你保证，玛格丽特，斯蒂芬·米勒不会为了一个外国国家的数十万美元出卖总统。
（注：根据《游说披露法》公开记录，大陆策略公司2025年收入为2730万美元，2024年仅为180万美元。该公司为凯蒂·威尔士发声的发言人告诉我们：“米恩斯先生对大陆策略公司的指控不准确且毫无根据，该公司从未与米恩斯先生会面，从未为草甘膦、孟山都、拜耳、 vaping 产品、 kratom（卡痛叶）或类似政策游说。此外，他关于凯蒂·威尔士参与塞族共和国选举的指控也是不实的，这一点已被其他媒体报道过。”
注：根据追踪联邦游说活动的Legistorm数据，巴拉德伙伴“去年游说收入近8200万美元，是Legistorm数据中任何公司单年最高纪录”。截至节目播出时，巴拉德伙伴未回应《面对全国》的置评请求。）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但你确实知道，有报道称总统的一些家人也有自己的商业利益。你不认为这也会造成利益冲突吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 我觉得每个问题都该被质疑。当然，我不能评论那个。我能说的是，我从未见过特朗普总统在推行MAHA政策时表现出任何反对的倾向，而且我也能证实，很多进程被拖延都是在他眼皮底下发生的。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以，在苏西·威尔士离职后，肯尼迪部长公开表示，是她促成了他与特朗普的合作，并感谢他帮助将有魄力的领导人引入HHS。他没有说你现在说的这些话。
卡利·米恩斯： 我对自己说的话很有信心。我接到了数百名议员和政府高级官员的电话，感谢我所做的一切。我觉得我是在为特朗普政府的大部分人发声，对此我非常有信心。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 肯尼迪部长知道你要公开这些指控吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 不知道。肯尼迪部长——美国很幸运他在HHS，而且他们很幸运现在有了一位幕僚长和一位总统，能为90%的结构性改革议程赋权给他。他是个品格高尚的人。而且他在HHS是我们的幸运。如果过去两年他和苏西闹翻，他就不会在那个职位上了。你知道她有多强势。所以我认为他做得很好。根据哈佛哈里斯民调，尽管受到各种诽谤，他仍是美国最受欢迎的公职人员。民主党有一个与他合作的绝佳机会。他们已经在照搬他的主张了。所以我请求民主党人相信他的诚意，他确实真诚，他们也可以真诚，这样就能办成事。但从我听到的情况来看，特朗普政府开启了新局面，我们在未来一年有一个重大机会，可以做成特朗普想要的、也是我知道他想做的事——成为一位有作为的历史性总统，完成我们曾经认为不可能的事。
（注：截至节目播出时，肯尼迪部长未回应《面对全国》的置评请求，HHS工作人员也未回应。）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我想谈谈政策。不过让我先说完这个，我想在这里稍微反驳你一下。如果你看看最近在华盛顿举行的MAHA大会，有很多大公司参与其中。
卡利·米恩斯： 是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 沃尔玛、联合健康集团，还有一些与MAHA结盟的公司，他们可能会从肯尼迪部长推动的肽类政策变革中获利，也会从其他健康倡议中获利，有些人在财务上能从这些政策中受益。这难道不会损害公信力吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 我——我觉得不会。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 这些公司也在赚钱。
卡利·米恩斯： 是的，我不能代表外部组织的做法发言。我认为任何美国人都不会觉得RFK Jr.的个人利益会损害公信力。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你对此感到放心吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 不，不。我不喜欢这样。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所有那些公司都与MAHA结盟？
卡利·米恩斯： 我不喜欢这个框架。不，那不是我的活动。我不喜欢这样。你说的是一个小型会议和一小群人。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 规模相当大。
卡利·米恩斯： 我不喜欢这种形象。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 部长在会上发了言。
卡利·米恩斯： 我不喜欢这种形象。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 奥兹博士也在会上发了言，还有演员拉塞尔·布兰德——
卡利·米恩斯： ——我认为任何美国人都不会觉得RFK Jr.有利益冲突，而且我认为每一个企业利益都该被审查。但说实话，补充剂公司不会让巴拉德伙伴成为全球收入最高的公司，对吧？肽类公司和复合药剂公司也不会安排他们与巴拉德、苏西·威尔士操纵的系统会面。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 不，但他们已经——
卡利·米恩斯： 是的，这些是——等等——
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——有直接渠道——
卡利·米恩斯： 这些都是非常小的。所以你说的是一个会议，而我谈论的是一个价值6万亿美元的医疗体系，这个体系完全是系统性地从美国人的健康中牟利，又利用美国人的疾病榨取利润，它已经牢牢掌控了过去的政权。这是美国人需要对比的，而你提到的只是那个会议接受了一些资金。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你成为了一些国会民主党人的攻击目标，这些人将在新的国会中掌权。他们指控你有利益冲突，因为截至2025年11月，你持有一家名为Truemed公司的2500万至5000万美元的股票。当时我知道你还是特殊政府雇员，后来你成为了白宫正式员工，一些安排有所变动。但对那些审视那段时期的人，你如何回应他们所说的伦理问题——
卡利·米恩斯： 是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——你存在的问题？
卡利·米恩斯： 每个人的利益冲突都该被严格审查。我写了一本关于锻炼和健康食品的书，之后创办了一家公司，致力于推动医疗开支流向锻炼和健康食品。通过这项工作，我结识了RFK Jr.和特朗普政府，被招入政府工作。我成为了特殊政府雇员（SGE），正如你所说，我决定全职进入政府时，已经完全剥离了那家公司。在加入特朗普政府之前我们筹集了资金。所以，我创办公司是为了推广健康食品和锻炼，为了进入政府，我违背了自身经济利益，完全剥离了那家公司。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以你会与质疑你这件事的国会民主党人合作吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 不，不，不。那位叫奥因克洛斯的众议员是个喷子，我和他在推特上斗了好几年，他说的话是诽谤。我可能会给他发法律通知，因为他声称我违法了，而这是不实的。我会回答任何问题，但我确实完全剥离了持股。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你最近在采访中说，政府正在阻挠你试图通过的医疗政策，你特别提到他们这么做是为了向糖业收钱。你还提到了烟草巨头。解释一下，你看到了什么？
卡利·米恩斯： 就像昨天苏西·威尔士离开时一样，她的副手们仍在不断向HHS施压，要求为果味 vaping 产品寻找路径。苏西主导的事务并非健康食品，不是清理农药，不是RFK Jr.竞选时承诺的那些核心问题。我必须借助特朗普总统的支持，以及乔·罗根等外部倡导人士来推动这些政策。前政权大力推动的是 vaping 这类产品，巴拉德伙伴就是这些公司的主要捐赠方，还有加油站售卖的“海洛因”——卡痛叶。
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——卡痛叶。
卡利·米恩斯： ——马蒂·马卡里勇敢地为那些造成巨大破坏的产品设定了低限量，基本上就是在加油站卖阿片类药物。他被排挤了，而那个限量被提高了20倍，所以人们仍然可以购买多种产品来获得快感，这正是那项政策的直接意图。这些就是当时被推动的政策，再说一次，我们该向前看。现在是新局面，但这是无可辩驳的事实。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 前FDA局长马蒂·马卡里博士于5月辞职。与他关系密切的消息人士表示，这是因为烟草公司施压要求让你刚才提到的果味vaping产品这类电子烟更容易获取。但有指控称，唐纳德·特朗普总统本人曾要求FDA对大型烟草公司采取更有利的政策，因为这些公司向他自己的中期选举政治行动委员会捐款。
卡利·米恩斯： 这可能是苏西透露的。我不知道。我看到很多情况是，他们会安排一场与特朗普总统的快速会面，向他强调某事“这很重要”，总统说了句话，他们就把这强行包装成他们的优先事项。我不认为特朗普总统的核心竞选主张是帮助这些行业。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 不，他竞选时没这么说，但——
卡利·米恩斯： 我也不认为他想这么做。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你不认为他知道？
卡利·米恩斯： 我确实不这么认为。我觉得他当总统不是为了这个。我知道的是，他和RFK Jr.谈论了要做重大变革。还有，我看到的是，有系统性的努力在与巴拉德伙伴等人合作，为这些行业服务。这是詹姆斯·布莱尔最重视的领域，他真正主导了政策制定，你知道，詹姆斯·布莱尔当时——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 他是政治策略师。
卡利·米恩斯： ——他不会打电话对我说“我们怎么能推广更多健康食品？我们怎么能给孩子提供更多健康食品？我们怎么能谈谈这些MAHA原则？”这种事从未发生过。我不得不强硬地要求他。他在推动果味vaping产品一事上态度坚决。所以——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以，——
卡利·米恩斯： ——这就是我看到的。
（注：针对卡利·米恩斯的指控，布莱尔告诉CBS新闻：“我从未专门推动过风味vaping产品。我的任务是推动FDA按照联邦法律要求，对尼古丁输送设备的申请进行审批，也就是在六个月内给出批准或不批准的答复……卡利是故意歪曲我的角色和职责，因为他完全反对这个议题。即使总统本人已公开表明他对吸烟和吸烟替代品的立场，并给出了明确指示，卡利就是不喜欢。”）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 说到这，雷诺美国烟草公司在政府宣布新烟草政策的一周前，向特朗普支持的政治行动委员会捐赠了500万美元。
卡利·米恩斯： 是的，苏西团队经常拿这个当“我们需要他们的钱用于中期选举”的理由。我没具体听到他们用这个理由支持vaping，但在糖业问题上，我确实直接听到他们说需要糖业的钱用于中期选举。所以当你把中期选举策略和“中期选举的钱比选民承诺更重要”的观念绑定，你就会找借口做任何事。而那些捐赠就是巴拉德伙伴帮你做的事：帮你把钱捐到正确的地方，然后这就成了推进某些事情的更多理由。
（注：根据联邦选举委员会数据，雷诺美国烟草公司的子公司RAI服务公司于2026年4月30日向“让美国再次伟大（MAGA）”组织捐赠了500万美元）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 《纽约时报》报道，烟草说客曾在特朗普总统位于佛罗里达的高尔夫球场与他共进午餐，向他游说。总统打电话给RFK Jr.了吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 是的，布——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 这事发生了吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 我不知道。布莱恩·巴拉德参与了那次会面，我知道苏西安排了很多次与他的会面，为总统支持某事找说辞。再说一次，我不认为果味vaping或加油站“海洛因”是特朗普总统的考虑或想要做的事。
（注：苏西·威尔士告诉CBS新闻，她与烟草行业在总统高尔夫球场的会面无关。）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 因为这里有个模式：特朗普第一任期时，FDA曾试图打击卡痛叶，也就是你说的“加油站海洛因”，也试图打击果味vaping。当时的FDA局长斯科特·戈特利布博士离职了。
卡利·米恩斯： ——而且——
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——而在特朗普第二任期，这些同样的问题再次出现。你确定总统——
卡利·米恩斯： ——我很——
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——不赞同这些做法吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 我确信总统意识到他与肯尼迪部长是代际联盟。他尊重肯尼迪部长，想大力推进儿童健康改善。我认为他得到了糟糕的建议，很多人把他当小孩对待，利用他。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 总统的员工把他当小孩对待？
卡利·米恩斯： 当然，他们总是不让他接触信息和人。我毫不惊讶，这些议题的讨论都很短，总统很忙，只是说“好，就这样吧”，然后——
玛格丽特·布伦南： ——或者他不感兴趣。
卡利·米恩斯： ——他们就用这个当借口，好像“总统就想要这个”。我不认为这是总统的首要议题，我觉得我们现在有了一位幕僚长，要把这种文化从白宫清除出去，清除那些至今仍把果味vaping当首要任务的人，去做大事。这是一个复杂的局面，我相信民主党会想讨论很多复杂问题。但说到MAHA的这些议题，我认为未来一年有一个巨大的机会去做成一些大事，因为我可以肯定地说，RFK Jr.、斯蒂芬·米勒和特朗普总统都想在这些议题上取得进展。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 肯尼迪部长已经提名海蒂·奥弗顿博士担任下一任FDA局长。他说她对每一项政策都极其专注、注重细节、领导有方。你指控她写了一份放松果味vaping标准的政策。
卡利·米恩斯： 我不会评论肯尼迪部长。海蒂·奥弗顿是我在政府中遇到的MAHA政策的最大障碍。在健康食品、致幻剂等精神健康治疗领域，她是一道墙，在我看来，她盲目地听从苏西的指示。马蒂·马卡里是她的导师，她在一次会议上告诉马卡里和我，如果他不批准他认为科学上不该批准的mRNA流感疫苗，她就帮不了他。一个无可辩驳的事实是，马蒂离职后，部分是由于vaping议题，她推动制定了放松vaping政策的方案。
（注：前FDA局长马蒂·马卡里博士告诉CBS新闻：“大型烟草公司利用他们与政府和HHS官员的关系，反复施压我批准吸引儿童的果味vaping产品——我拒绝了。卡痛叶/7-羟色胺 lobby 也用了同样的手段，试图让我将这种新型‘加油站海洛因’非法化。作为FDA局长，我像上周跨党派选民一样，始终拒绝政治腐败。”）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以，在这位新幕僚长上任的新政权下，你认为她的提名会被撤回吗？她已经在国会作证，还需要投票确认。
卡利·米恩斯： 我的看法是，海蒂·奥弗顿不配成为FDA局长，她没有品格和操守。
（注：海蒂·奥弗顿博士的发言人回应米恩斯对其资质的批评，告诉CBS新闻：“两位前FDA局长不这么认为。”）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你辞职那天，食品类股上涨，通用磨坊、卡夫等公司股价上扬。你一直在推动制定超加工食品的联邦定义。为什么这个定义还没出台？
卡利·米恩斯： 这是显而易见的。儿童70%的饮食是超加工食品，定义并不复杂。有人在持续游说反对这一定义，因为业内人士在和我及其他人会面时直言，他们根本不想有这个定义，因为他们不想让美国人民更透明地了解自己吃的东西，毕竟现在超加工食品的消费正在下降。这是我和数百名利益相关者开会、不懈推进的政策。我见了每一位食品行业说客，还有美国心脏协会、美国医学协会、美国儿科学会——那些在其他问题上起诉政府但支持这项政策的团体。我们经历了跨部门政策流程，获得了美国农业部等部门和白宫其他机构的批准。但就在公布前几天，在可口可乐、亿滋等公司的游说团队接到苏西办公室的大量电话后，他们威胁我——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 他们对你说什么？我会打给幕僚长？
卡利·米恩斯： 他们在会面中承认，自己对定义制定没贡献，只是不想让它通过。我说这是政府的明确承诺和任务，他们说那我们会打电话给苏西办公室和其他人。我对此非常不安，因为他们说起这些时，就好像政府里的那些人是他们行业的延伸。他们那么做了，而苏西办公室把定义方案撤了。
玛格丽特·布伦南： MAHA的另一个关键议题是消除草甘膦的使用，也就是我们刚才提到的与癌症相关的除草剂。它以“农达”为名销售，由拜耳生产，其前身是孟山都。为什么特朗普政府会支持该公司和其立场，让它在最高法院胜诉、免于更多诉讼？这不符合MAHA的原则。
卡利·米恩斯： 不，不符合。而且是海蒂·奥弗顿——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但这是MAGA的原则吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 不，不是。海蒂·奥弗顿主导了这个流程，与司法部合作撰写了一份向最高法院提交的简报，敦促他们审理此案，为这种被多个和解案件证实的致癌化学物质——
玛格丽特·布伦南： EPA仍在审查它。
卡利·米恩斯： 那个[内容听不清] EPA审查被推翻，因为拜耳贿赂了人，还找人 ghost-wrote（代笔）了研究。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 贿赂谁？
卡利·米恩斯： 这是有记录的。草甘膦已经30年没被审查了，几年前刚接受过一次审查，结果被推翻，因为拜耳代笔研究并向EPA官员行贿。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 现在还在发生吗？
卡利·米恩斯： EPA有很大的问题，这是特朗普竞选时承诺要解决的，我希望我们能做到。关于豁免权的问题，是海蒂·奥弗顿和苏西的团队、司法部合作，说政府应该在没有征求肯尼迪部长和特朗普总统意见的情况下受理这个案件。
（注：一位白宫高级官员告诉CBS新闻， Solicitor General（副首席法务官）是应最高法院的要求撰写了那份简报。该官员还表示，奥弗顿博士确实在最后阶段对简报提出了意见，但只是修改了“语气”。特朗普政府在法庭文件中称，联邦标准高于州级责任主张，这与草甘膦制造商孟山都（现拜耳）的立场一致。）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 你说的很多员工公众可能不知道，但大家知道有EPA政府、李·泽尔丁、美国农业部的布鲁克·罗林斯和HHS部长。他们没有参与这些细节吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 政府有200万人。特朗普总统是美国历史上第一个指出“我们的体制濒临崩溃，机构腐败”这个问题的总统，我认为这是巨大的贡献。现在有顶尖民主党人也在说同样的话，所以我觉得我们有机会解决问题。李和布鲁克经常和RFK Jr.交流，知道问题所在，也在努力解决。这些机构的庞大和破败，你是无法想象的，而政府里有一些人——我要说，李和布鲁克一直和RFK Jr.努力解决这个问题，这很艰巨。这不是特朗普总统的借口，但确实如此。我认为这是美国人面临的文明挑战，我们需要意识到，这个问题和美国竞争力，不取决于特朗普总统去留，或斯蒂芬·米勒去留，而取决于修复我们体制的制度性腐败，这种腐败会让我们的国父们感到震惊。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以你认为国会民主党人举行听证会、发出传票、传唤这些人是正确的吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 我觉得这是个巨大的错误，是心理战的一部分，他们装成唯一的问题是特朗普总统下台，因为这是谎言，还是老一套。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 那肯尼迪部长呢？
卡利·米恩斯： 国会不应该这么做。去追究肯尼迪部长会很疯狂。他是美国最受欢迎的公职人员，而他们实际上在竞选时宣扬的正是他所宣扬的东西。让我说完这个点。美国人民需要明白，如果民主党调查的主要论点是“拯救美国的关键是特朗普总统是否在任”，那就是谎言，我们知道这是谎言。我所说的这些人，以及我描述的制度性腐败，已经持续了几十年，这是两党共同的问题。现在，由舒默参议员的前幕僚运营的游说公司，正在充实他们的金库。这是一场游戏，而有意思的是，特朗普在竞选期间，以及很多没有企业资金的民主党人，尤其是极左人士，实际上也在说同样的话，那就是最该解决的生存问题是制度性腐败。如果民主党花些时间和RFK Jr.合作，问问“为什么FDA用政治干预来做药物决策？”如果马蒂·马卡里能作证，这就是个政治过程，美国人民不该为我们的监管决策方式感到自豪。为什么EPA30年没审查草甘膦？我们不能花点时间吗？我不觉得国会会这么做，因为不管民主党还是共和党，他们都想争论左右之争，这是个笑话。他们不想谈论根本的腐败，因为这会牵连到自己。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但你提到了一些你可能合作的民主党人。让MAHA和唐纳德·特朗普、MAGA结盟是战略失误吗？MAHA PAC没有支持任何一位民主党人，全是共和党人。
卡利·米恩斯： 这非常——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 所以现在有党派之分了。
卡利·米恩斯： 这是一个非常跨党派的问题，也被多次指出。RFK Jr.说的经常是左派一直在说的，这是好事。我对RFK Jr.决定与特朗普总统在右派合作感到很放心。我认为历史上好事是，右派现在和左派一样对这些问题有热情。当你把一个问题注入政治，它就会变得有争议。你同意大多数这些问题，但新闻基本只报道极端情况、有毒事物和问题。但有个巨大的机会，右派和左派在同一问题上有热情。而且我认为现在超加工食品的消费正在下降，从很多统计数据来看，美国人确实在践行健康习惯，我们在文化上觉醒了。RFK Jr.和右派的特朗普总统证实了这一点，推动了文化发展，我觉得这是积极的。无论你是左派、右派还是中间派，我觉得你都会更关注这些问题，特朗普和RFK Jr.应该为此获得赞誉。
玛格丽特·布伦南： 但说到成绩，CBS出口民调显示，58%的中期选举选民认为特朗普政府的政策恶化了美国人民的健康和福祉，58%。还显示，47%的投票者认为特朗普政策让儿童疫苗获取变得更糟。过于聚焦疫苗而不公开关注食物问题和你说的跨党派事项，是不是个错误？
卡利·米恩斯： RFK Jr.关注的是团结的跨党派问题，所以说他只谈论——
玛格丽特·布伦南： 行政命令涉及草甘膦和鼓励选择不接种疫苗——
（对话重叠）
卡利·米恩斯： 让我，让我说完。媒体很关注疫苗。事实是，RFK Jr.90%的时间都在做所有美国人都会引以为傲的事。我要说疫苗的事，好吗？我在乔·罗根的播客里提到，FDA在莫德纳mRNA疫苗的研究中发现，实验组有死亡病例，绝对效益微乎其微，还出现严重副作用，他们要求启动另一项研究。
（注：卡利·米恩斯在采访后告诉CBS，他说的是莫德纳mRNA流感疫苗，不是新冠疫苗。）
（对话重叠）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 这是FDA批准的疫苗。
卡利·米恩斯： 是的，不，它没被批准。因为数据不合格，被退回来了。情况是，投资了这款药物的黑石集团打了很多电话，还有我们都认识的说客打了很多电话，马蒂离职后，海蒂·奥弗顿被要求插手FDA，推翻那个决定。FDA疫苗部门主管大卫·卡斯洛曾是默克公司疫苗部门主管，他戴着N95口罩，车牌上写着“接种”，靠默克赚了很多钱，他组建了一个他朋友组成的咨询委员会，批准了FDA认为不安全无效的疫苗。现在这被认定为安全有效。我认为不管民主党、左派、右派还是中间派，都可能有疑问。如果国会要调查，能不能调查体系中的政治干预？作为家长，作为被MAHA圈的人攻击的人，因为疫苗不是我的核心议题，我非常、非常担心药物审批中的腐败和政治干预，包括疫苗。我觉得这很值得讨论，坦率说，这是民主党该想知道发生了什么的领域。
（注：FDA未回应《面对全国》的置评请求。
但一位美国卫生官员告诉CBS新闻，疫苗或药物研究中出现的任何死亡都将与向FDA提交的批准文件相关联。死亡和安全信号的问题确实存在，声称存在掩盖是不实的。除了批准文件，这个问题在咨询委员会公开讨论，6月也有公开辩论。FDA没有设立特别咨询委员会来批准这款疫苗。FDA没有串通或合谋的证据。）
玛格丽特·布伦南： 我们看到创纪录数量的医生和科学家参选并获胜，他们将加入民主党多数派。南卡罗来纳州儿科医生安妮·安德鲁斯表示，她的竞选承诺之一是弹劾RFK Jr.。她说他是她几十年来的死敌，全国有数千名儿科医生会这么说。这难道不是疫苗议题妨碍所有其他健康举措的例子吗？
卡利·米恩斯： 正如我所说，我认为有合理的理由质疑FDA的腐败，而我觉得完全否认新冠后很多美国人对医疗体系建议的信任危机是个错误。我确实认为有个重大机会去完成90%的议题。在华盛顿，我觉得最难完成的其实是那些受欢迎的结构性改革，真正对抗特殊利益的改革。我找不到过去20年国会通过的反对特殊利益的重大法案。所以如果他们说要关注真正的健康改革，而改革几乎必然会触及一些特殊利益。RFK Jr.在那里，如果他们想让他加入、问他疫苗的做法是否合适，我相信他也会乐意讨论。
（注：我们向白宫幕僚长斯蒂芬·米勒寻求更多背景信息，截至节目播出时，他未回应。）
November 8, 2026 / 2:16 PM EST / CBS News
The following is the full transcript of the interview with Calley Means, former senior adviser to Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a portion of which aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Nov. 8, 2026.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Calley, thank you for coming in and talking to us. President Trump has announced that Chief of Staff Susie Wiles has left the White House. The departure coincides with this resounding Republican loss in the midterms. But also, you went public with some very specific allegations of corruption and a call to clean house. Was it your intention to get her removed?
CALLEY MEANS: Yes. I think President Trump has been subverted by people that are beholden to special interests and not what President Trump ran on, and what voters voted for. I led the MAHA initiative at the White House. And Stephen Miller said it recently in his speech, the heart of MAHA is that we are the only primate humans that deal with pediatric cancer and rampant cancer rates. And it’s obviously because of our environment. It’s because of pesticides. It’s because of that- 70% of a child’s diet is ultra-processed food. It’s because we’re not out in the sun. It’s basic, basic stuff. And that, I think, was really the heart of the MAHA movement. I think a heart of what President Trump ran on. And there’s very simple things. And Americans voted to change those things. And I think underneath Trump’s nose, in many cases, you had a group of former lobbyists, catering to the vaping industry, catering to the ultra-processed food industry, catering to the pharmaceutical industry, catering to the pesticide industry and doing their bidding with an excuse that we need their money for the midterms and really need to actually go against what voters said, but need their money explicitly. That’s what they said. And I think that–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Who’s they?
CALLEY MEANS: Susie and her cohort. Susie and Richard Walters, who is actually not someone most people know, but was one of the most powerful people in the country, was the de facto chief of staff when Susie was getting cancer treatment. Walker Barrett and James Blair, a very close knit crew, who explicitly catered to special interests against the will of the voters. I think a lot of this happened without Trump’s full knowledge. I don’t think President Trump fully knew that some of these advisors were taking money from the industries we ran on fighting against. At the time, they’re giving explicit policy advice–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Directly taking money?
CALLEY MEANS: Directly, of course. Yes. Tony Fabrizio–
(NOTE: Richard Walters told CBS News he submitted his resignation Friday. Susie Wiles told CBS News that President Trump “did more for MAHA than any president before or likely any president in the future.”)
MARGARET BRENNAN: –he’s a pollster. (CROSSTALK)
CALLEY MEANS: –is one of the most powerful people in the country. And every single cabinet secretary was conniving on how to convince Tony Fabrizio of their policy positions because any policy went through Tony Fabrizio for a political check. You know, he was in the White House all the time, every single week. And–
MARGARET BRENNAN: He runs an outside polling firm that the White House relies on.
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, but- but that’s- that’s a name- I mean, he was- he was one of the most impactful players in White House policy making. One of the most powerful people in the country. He had a huge say in any policy that got done. And as he is opining on the political relevance of doing, you know, healthy food and healthy school lunches or, you know, taking on the pesticide industry or taking on big pharma, which President Trump ran on. He was getting paid by Pfizer or by Pepsi. To this day, it’s on his website right now. You can see it on the Joe Rogan podcast I just did, we pulled up his website. It’s advertised right now. He solicits clients right now and lists those people as his clients.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you think all of his polling is compromised?
CALLEY MEANS: I’m just stating facts. I’m just stating–
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that’s your theory that you’re putting forward.
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, I’m just stating a fact that we were trying to get a 90% support policy done of defining ultra-processed food, and he said the juice isn’t worth the squeeze on this, and advised against it, while being paid by Pepsi.
(NOTE : Following the conclusion of Face the Nation’s broadcast, Tony Fabrizio released the following statement: “Anyone with web access and a couple spare minutes could find ample evidence that Calley Means’ allegations that I am in the pocket of Big Pharma is not only ridiculous, but demonstrably false… I have even encouraged GOP Members of Congress to campaign on the MFN issue, which would harm Big Pharma’s bottom line”).
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to get into the specifics of ultra-processed food in a moment, because it’s an important health initiative that you are pushing for. But let me ask you on this topic of basically corruption. You went on Joe Rogan’s podcast and made a lot of these allegations.
CALLEY MEANS: Just factual statements of what I yeah, what I experienced leading the MAHA agenda.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did the president get word that you were doing that? Do you think that what you laid out publicly was a factor in Susie Wiles’ departure?
CALLEY MEANS: I have no idea. I know the president is close with Joe Rogan and appreciates his opinion. You know, people can watch the podcast. I encourage everyone to do so. It goes into details of factual statements.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because she resigned Thursday.
CALLEY MEANS: But I think that President Trump yeah, you know, I can’t speak to what’s going through President Trump’s head. But I think with his elevation of Stephen Miller and again, speaking for my world, speaking for MAHA, Stephen Miller, who understands the corporate capture of our political system is particularly when it comes to health care, better than any, I would say, government official, that I’ve ever seen. Who wants to go hard against special interests, who I think made a pitch to President Trump, we’re going to go back to campaign promises, America First principles, that President Trump got shot and suffered so much in order to be a historic president and do big things. We’re going to get away from the Ballard, which is Susie’s lobbying group, controlled policy process and towards an America First policy process. I think that’s what Stephen wants to do. I think that’s what resonated with President Trump. So I think it’s a bold statement that President Trump made, pushing Susie out and- and elevating Stephen Miller. And I think it’s a very good sign for America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, RFK Jr, the HHS secretary, who you’re very, very close to, said “Stephen Miller is the strongest MAHA supporter in the administration. It’s time to unleash the Kraken.” What- what do you take that to mean?
CALLEY MEANS: What I take it to mean is actually an opening for Republicans and Democrats. “Unleash the Kraken” means doing things that matter to the American people. And when it comes to health care, these are completely nonpartisan things. I mean, I spent every single day with Bobby Kennedy, as you said, probably more time with them than almost anyone. And what he says, what he pushes his team on, is the exact same things that Democrats are running on. It is taking on corporate capture. It’s taking on corruption. It’s taking on big pharma incentives. It’s making our food healthier. That is what he is pushing his team to do. And I think people would be shocked to- if they saw, I think really how wholesome his world is to be quite frank. I mean, these- these are universal, very popular ideas he’s trying to push on. So “unleash the Kraken” means understanding the pain Americans are feeling, the frustration they’re feeling. And I think we are more closer to a breaking point with our institutions and Americans’ frustration with the corruption in Washington, D.C. President Trump identified that issue. And I think what that means is we are- have an open hand. The administration has an open hand, to actually get big things done that are not partisan but actually structural.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So on that point, I hear that you believe Stephen Miller is an ally to the cause, but in terms of being an operator in Washington, I mean, he’s radioactive to Democrats. They’re already calling for him to be fired. He was the architect of the mass deportation policy that proved very unpopular in these midterms. Why do you think he can actually help you get things done on this cause?
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, President Trump is the president for the next two years. The next two years are going to be the most consequential two years in American history. And I think we should all realize that our problems are not Trump or no Trump. Stephen Miller, not Stephen Miller. It’s the institutional corruption in D.C. that Stephen Miller and President Trump understand. I think there’s a lot we can get together on immigration, which is not my issue. I will say that a lot of polls said that that was one of- like actually solving the border crisis. Stephen Miller did do that. That was a core campaign promise. That was an existential issue. He is very competent and he has dramatically reduced those numbers. So I can speak with most authority from the MAHA perspective. Let’s talk about health care. Stephen Miller wants to get transformative things done with Bobby Kennedy and President Trump that are not partisan, but structural. He wants to get the same things done that Elizabeth Warren and El-Sayed and other people are running on. And I think there is a major opportunity to come together and get some big things done, which, quite frankly, we have to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you said earlier this week you think the best chance the president has to get things done is to work with Bernie Sanders, and Senator-elect Abdul El-Sayed. You mentioned Elizabeth Warren here, but how do you think those things can get done in this environment? Like, what’s the thing that is most tangible here?
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, I think there are specific bills, specific issues that they’re literally saying the same thing. Stephen Miller, President Trump and Bobby Kennedy want to take on the fact that we spend two, three times more than any other developed country on health care and live shorter. That’s clearly just corruption.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the administration pushed– (CROSSTALK)
CALLEY MEANS: –Pharma prices– (CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Republican bill that pulled funding from premiums, and Medicaid— (CROSSTALK)
CALLEY MEANS: I think- I think Stephen Miller and Bobby Kennedy would be very amenable to meeting with Democrats, meeting with Republicans who aren’t beholden to special interests like John Thune. And working out specific wins on drug pricing, on labels for ultra-processed food, on greater disclosures and processes at the FDA so we make sure we have gold star science on the fact that the United States is 4% of the world’s population, but in just 20% of the world’s herbicides and pesticides, and the recent EPA review of glyphosate was thrown out because it had ghostwritten research showing Bayer bribed EPA officials. Can we have EPA reform?
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is a cancer-linked herbicide.
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah. So I think they would be happy, and have an outreached hand knowing them to get big things done. They want to get big things done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You told Joe Rogan that if you’re a special interest group, you pay Susie Wiles’ daughter to get something done. What specific policy are you talking about here? What do you mean by that?
CALLEY MEANS: Margaret, everyone knows—including you—that this is how it works. They know that Continental Strategies (sic.), their revenue didn’t go from $0 to $30 million–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –This is a political lobbying firm.– (CROSSTALK)
CALLEY MEANS: –A year by accident. They, Ballard Partners, where Susie worked, became the highest revenue generating lobbying firm in the history of human civilization. That did not happen by accident. These companies that give those- those firms money are not acting irrationally. Like, like more people—and I encourage more people to just say the truth—President Trump said the truth during the campaign, and this culture that Susie engendered was treating the American people like they’re stupid. And often, frankly, I think treating President Trump like he’s stupid. Obviously Continental Strategies (sic.) revenue exploding, was- was tied to Katie Wiles working there. And what’s an example? The fact that Katie was seen in an anti-American, pro-Russian government, Republika Srpska, recently, and then magically, leaders from that country have a meeting with Susie, and get a pass. She was there with James Blair and Chris LaCivita, who is very influential in this world, collecting- and James and Chris were collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars very recently as they were running the midterm strategy, selling out President Trump for foreign money. They did not tell President Trump that. They told Susie, my understanding is, they had to have, right? And she clearly okayed it. (Susie Wiles told CBS News that she did not have advance knowledge of Blair’s travel to Republika Srpska. James Blair also told CBS that he did not tell Wiles in advance of his trip. Richard Walters told CBS News that Susie Wiles was told about LaCivita’s trip to Republika Srpska in advance by a third party). But they didn’t tell President Trump. That’s selling President Trump out. And I can guarantee you this, Margaret, that Stephen Miller will not be selling the president out, for a couple hundred thousand dollars from a foreign country.
(NOTE: Continental Strategy reported $27.3 million in revenue in 2025, up from $1.8 million in revenue in 2024, according to public records available under the Lobbying Disclosure Act. A spokesperson for Continental strategy, speaking for Katie Wiles, told us that “Mr. Means’ claims regarding Continental Strategy are inaccurate and baseless” and that the firm has “never met with Mr Means, never lobbied for glyphosate, Monsantos (SIC), Bayer, vapes, Kratom, or similar policies. Also, his allegations regarding Katie Wiles’ participation in the Srpska elections are false, as has been previously reported by other media outlets”).
( Note: According to Legistorm, which tracks federal lobbying activity, Ballard Partners “brought in nearly $82 million in lobbying revenue last year, the highest single-year total by any firm in LegiStorm’s data.” As of broadcast air, Ballard Partners had not responded to Face the Nation’s request for comment)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you do know, though, that there’s been reporting that some of the president’s own family members have their own financial interests and businesses here. You don’t think that is compromising as well?
CALLEY MEANS: I think- I think- I think every question should be asked. Sure. I can’t speak to that. What I can speak to is that I have never seen President Trump have a policy inclination against going aggressive on MAHA policies, and I can also substantiate that a lot of the things that have been slowed down were done under his nose.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, after Susie Wiles left, Secretary Kennedy publicly said she brokered his partnership with Trump, and then thanked her for helping to bring in disruptive leaders into HHS. He didn’t say any of the things that you are saying here right now.
CALLEY MEANS: I feel very comfortable with what I said. I feel very comfortable with the hundreds of calls I’ve gotten from lawmakers and senior administration officials thanking me for what I’ve done. I feel like I’m speaking for a large portion of the Trump administration, and I’m- I’m very- I’m very comfortable with that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did Secretary Kennedy know you were going to go public with these allegations?
CALLEY MEANS: No, I- Secretary Kennedy- the- America is very, very lucky he is sitting at HHS, and they’re very lucky that they now have a chief of staff and a president to empower really 90% issues and structural reform. He is a man of high integrity, and- and he- we’re lucky that he’s at HHS. If he went to war with Susie over the past two years, he wouldn’t be in that job. You know she’s ruthless. So- so I think he’s executed perfectly. I think he is, according to Harvard Harris poll, the most popular public official in America, despite all the slander. And- and- and there’s a real opportunity for Democrats to work with him. They’re already co-opting his message. Take- I ask the Democrats take him at his word that he’s sincere, and he wants to take the Democrats as sincere so they can get something done. But I think, from what I’m hearing, we are in a new day for the Trump administration, and we have a huge opportunity in the next year to do what President Trump wants, and I know he wants, which is to be a historic president and get things done that we didn’t think possible.
( NOTE: As of broadcast air, Secretary Kennedy had not responded to Face the Nation’s request for comment, HHS staff had not responded either)
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to talk about policy. Let me finish this though, because I want to challenge you a little bit here. If you look at the recent MAHA conference that was just held here in Washington, there were major corporations associated with it.
CALLEY MEANS: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Walmart, United Healthcare, and then there were also companies aligned with MAHA who have money to potentially make in peptide policy changes that Secretary Kennedy has, you know, championed. There are other wellness initiatives and people who financially could benefit from some of these policies. Doesn’t that also risk compromising integrity?
CALLEY MEANS: I- I- I don’t think- I- I don’t think- yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Those are also companies who set to make money.
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, I can’t speak for what an outside group does. I don’t think any American thinks that Bobby Kennedy is compromised by his personal interests.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Were you comfortable with that?
CALLEY MEANS: No, no. I didn’t love it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All those corporations being aligned?
CALLEY MEANS: I didn’t want the framing of it. No, it’s not- it’s not my event. I didn’t- I didn’t love that. You’re talking about one small conference and one small group.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was pretty big.
CALLEY MEANS: I don’t love the optics.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean, the secretary spoke at it.
CALLEY MEANS: I don’t like- I don’t like the optics.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Dr. Oz spoke at it. Russell Brand, the actor who’s–
CALLEY MEANS: –I don’t think any American thinks Bobby Kennedy is compromised, and I think every single corporate interest should be scrutinized. But- but- but let’s be honest, right? Supplement companies aren’t making Ballard Partners the highest revenue generating firm in the world, right? Peptide companies and compounders are not getting meetings with Ballard, Susie Wiles rigging the system.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, but they’ve made–
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, these are- hold on–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –have direct line–
CALLEY MEANS: These are very very small. So- so- so, you’re talking about a conference, I’m talking about a $6 trillion health care system that is absolutely systematically rigged against Americans being healthy and profiting from Americans being sick, and has had a stranglehold on the previous regime, right? So that’s a big comparison Americans need to make to you referencing a conference that accepted some money.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have been in the crosshairs of some congressional Democrats who are now going to be empowered in this new Congress. They have alleged you have your own conflicts of interest because you’ve owned between $25 to $50 million in stock in a company called Truemed through November 2025. At that time, I understand you had a different status. You were a special government employee. Then you became an employee, a permanent one at the White House, and some of the arrangements changed. But for those who look at that period of time, how can you address what they say are ethical issues–
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: –that you had?
CALLEY MEANS: Everybody’s conflict should be highly scrutinized. I started a company to drive medical spending to exercise and healthy food after writing a book about exercise and healthy food. Through that advocacy, I met Bobby Kennedy, met the Trump administration, and was put into government. I became an SGE, and as you said, fully divested that company when I decided to go in full time. We raised around before the Trump administration started. So, I started a company to promote healthy food and exercise, and fully divested that company against my economic interests to come into government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you would work with congressional Democrats who want to question you on that?
CALLEY MEANS: Oh no, no, no, no, no. The- the person- the person, Auchincloss is a troll who I’ve been fighting on Twitter with for years, and what he said is defamatory. I’m probably going to issue a legal notice to him because he literally said that I broke the law, which is untrue. And, I’ll answer any question, but I fully divested my holdings.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In a recent interview, you said the administration was blocking health policies that you were trying to get passed, and you said specifically they were doing it to take money from the sugar industry. You also talked about big tobacco. Explain that. What did you see?
CALLEY MEANS: So, as- last night, like yesterday, as Susie Wiles left, her deputies were still relentlessly pushing HHS to find a pathway for fruit-flavored vapes. The issues that came from Susie’s world were not healthy food, were not, you know, cleaning up pesticides were not, you know, these core issues that Bobby Kennedy ran on. I had to steamroll any of those policies through them with President Trump’s support, you know, and using outside, you know, advocates like Joe Rogan. The issues that were being pushed hard in the previous regime were- were things like vapes, which are a huge donor to Ballard Partners, are things like gas station heroin.
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Kratom.–
CALLEY MEANS: –Marty Makary bravely put a high-tolerance- you know, a low-tolerance limit on the- on those products, which are causing devastation. You basically have opioids being sold at gas stations. He was pushed out, and that tolerance limit was increased 20x, so that there’s still an ability for people to, you know, buy multiple products and get high, which was the direct intention of that policy. These are the types of policies that are being pushed- were being pushed, and again, we should be looking forward. It’s a new day, but that’s just demonstrably true.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The former FDA commissioner, Dr. Marty Makary, resigned in May. And sources close to him said it was due to pressure from tobacco companies to make more available what you just said, fruit-flavored vapes, these e-cigarettes. But there have been allegations that the president himself, Donald Trump pressed for the FDA to allow more favorable policies for big tobacco because of donations to the political action committees for the midterms that he himself knew.
CALLEY MEANS: I- I- maybe that’s leaked by Susie. I don’t know. I- what I saw a lot is that they would set up a quick meeting with President Trump. They would flag something for him- ‘oh, this is an important issue.’ He’d say something, and then they would jam it down, jam it down, saying it’s a presidential priority for their priorities. I don’t think President Trump ran, you know, as a primary purpose to help these industries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, he didn’t run on it but–
CALLEY MEANS: And I don’t- and I don’t think that’s what he wants.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t think he knew?
CALLEY MEANS: No, I don’t. From- I- I don’t think that’s why he is serving as president. I think he talks to Bobby Kennedy about doing big transformational things, and what I know and what I saw is that there’s systematic efforts working with Ballard, working with these other people to help these industries. This was the single- this was the single most emphasized area for James Blair, who really led policy, you know, James Blair was–
MARGARET BRENNAN: He’s a political strategist.
CALLEY MEANS: –wasn’t- James Blair wasn’t pushing, you know, calling me in and saying, “how can we, you know, promote more healthy food? How can we give more healthy food to kids? How can we, you know, talk about these MAHA principles?” That never happened. I had to- I had to bulldoze to him. He was relentless on helping the fruit-flavored vape industry. So–
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, to–
CALLEY MEANS: –that’s what I saw.
(NOTE: In response to Calley Means’ allegations, Blair told CBS News, ” I didn’t promote flavored vaping specifically at all. I was tasked with driving FDA to make its process for approving or denying nicotine delivery device applications work the way current federal law dictates it works, which is that applicants get a yes or no answer on approval in six months…Calley is intentionally misrepresenting my role and my responsibility because he opposes the issue entirely. Even though the President himself has made his position on smoking and smoking alternatives known very publicly and has provided clear direction. Calley just doesn’t like it”).
MARGARET BRENNAN: So to that point, so the tobacco company Reynolds American donated $5 million to a political action committee backed by Trump a week before the administration rolled out a new tobacco policy.
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, and that was a big reason why there was- that was a big argument from Susie’s team on why we need to do this. That, you know, I didn’t hear this specifically with vapes, but with the sugar industry, I, you know, it was direct conversation about how we need the sugar industry’s money for the midterms. So, you know, when you have the midterm strategy, and- and a belief that money for the midterms is more important than voter promises, you’re basically able to excuse everything. And that was, you know, those donations, right, is what Ballard helps you do. They help you donate to the right place, and, and then that’s more of a reason to do things.
(NOTE: RAI Services Company, an affiliate of Reynolds American, the parent company of RJ Reynolds, donated $5,000,000 MAGA, INC. on April 30, 2026, according to data from the Federal Election Commission)
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the New York Times reported that tobacco lobbyists had actually been at the president’s Florida golf course with him at lunch, advocating to the president. He picked up the phone and he called RFK Jr.
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, Bri-
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did that happen?
CALLEY MEANS: I don’t know. Brian Ballard was at that meeting, and I know that Susie set up a lot of meetings with Brian Ballard to get a talking point that the president supports something. Again, I do not think fruit flavored vapes or gas station heroin is any percentage of what President Trump is thinking about or wants to do.
(NOTE: Susie Wiles told CBS News that she had nothing to do with the tobacco industry meeting with the president at his golf club).
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because there is a pattern here. It was in the first Trump administration that the FDA tried to crack down on kratom, what you’re calling gas station heroin. They also tried to crack down on fruit flavored vapes. The FDA commissioner at that time, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, left.
CALLEY MEANS: –And-
MARGARET BRENNAN: –And yet, in the second Trump administration, these very same issues are surfacing again. Are you sure the president–
CALLEY MEANS: –I am-
MARGARET BRENNAN: –isn’t okay with that?
CALLEY MEANS: I am sure that the president is- realizes that he has a generational coalition with Secretary Kennedy. He respects Secretary Kennedy. He wants to go hard on the issue of improving health for children. I think he had severe, poor advice from people, I- I think who treated him like a baby in many respects and used him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president’s staff treat him like a baby?
CALLEY MEANS: Of course, they would- they would block access to and information to him all the time. I- I would be not surprised at all, you know, if they had very short conversations on these issues, you know, where the president’s extremely busy and the president said, “okay, whatever.” And, and then–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Or he’s not interested.
CALLEY MEANS: –They use yeah, and they use that, like, like it’s all it was all like, “the president wants this.” I don’t think this is the president’s top issue, and I think we have a chief of staff now that wants to exorcise this culture from the White House, exorcise the people that are still pushing fruit flavored vapes to this day as their top priority, and get, you know, to doing big things. And I think there’s a- this is a complicated world. There’s a lot of complicated issues that I’m sure Democrats are going to want to address. But when it comes to these issues on MAHA, I think there is huge opportunity in the next year to get some big things done. Because I can say with certainty that Bobby Kennedy, Stephen Miller, and President Trump want to get big things done on these issues.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Secretary Kennedy has endorsed Dr. Heidi Overton to be the next FDA commissioner. He said she’s exceptionally dedicated, meticulous attention to detail, strategic leadership to every policy she touches. You accused her of writing a policy to relax standards on fruit-flavored vapes.
CALLEY MEANS: I’m not going to speak for Secretary Kennedy. Heidi Overton was the biggest block to MAHA policies I encountered in the government. On- on healthy food, on mental health treatments like psychedelics, she was a stone wall, and she really mindlessly, in my opinion, did whatever Susie told her to do. Marty Makary was her mentor, and she, in a meeting, told Marty and I that she couldn’t help Marty if he didn’t approve a drug that he thought scientifically should not be approved, an mRNA flu vaccine. And it’s just a factual statement that after Marty left, partly due to the vaping issue, she drove the creation of the relaxed vaping strategy.
(NOTE: Former FDA Commissioner Dr. Marty Makary told CBS News, “Big tobacco exploited their connections to administration and HHS officials to put repeated pressure on me to approve fruit-flavored vapes that appeal to children—I wouldn’t do it. The Kratom/7-OH lobby ran the same playbook to undermine my efforts to make this new ‘gas station heroin’ illegal. As FDA commissioner, I always rejected political corruption just as voters across the political spectrum did last week.”)
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in this new regime with the new chief of staff, do you think her nomination is going to be pulled? I mean, she’s already testified to Congress. She’s still got to face a vote.
CALLEY MEANS: My opinion is Heidi Overton should not be FDA- she does not have the character or integrity to be FDA secretary- or FDA commissioner.
(NOTE: A spokesman for Dr. Heidi Overton responded to Means’ criticism of her qualifications and told CBS news that “two former FDA commissioners think otherwise”).
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the day you resigned, food stocks rallied. General Mills, Kraft, they went up. You have been working to create a federal definition of ultra-processed food. Why hasn’t that definition happened?
CALLEY MEANS:This is a no-brainer. 70% of a child’s diet is ultra-processed food, and the definition is not complicated. There was relentless lobbying against this because the industry and they said this in meetings with me and other people, they just don’t want a definition because they don’t want Americans to have more transparency into what they’re eating because there’s a shift away from ultra-processed food right now. This was a policy that folks and I worked relentlessly on with hundreds of meetings, stakeholders. I met with every food industry lobbyist. And we had the American Heart Association, American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, groups that are suing the administration on other issues supportive of this policy. We went through an interagency policy process where the USDA signed off and other parts of the White House. And then days before the announcement, after a barrage of calls to Susie’s office, which the lobbyists from Coca-Cola and Mondelez threatened me that they would do–
MARGARET BRENNAN: They said to you, what? I’ll call the chief of staff?
CALLEY MEANS: When they- when they basically in meetings acknowledge that they don’t really have contributions to the definition but just don’t want it done and I said this is a mandate and a promise from the administration to get done. They said okay, well we’re going to call Susie’s office and other people. I was very disturbed by that because they spoke about that as if these people in the government were extensions of their industry. They did that, and it was pulled by Susie’s office.
MARGARET BRENNAN: One of the other key issues for MAHA is eliminating the use of glyphosate. That’s that herbicide we talked about, linked to cancer. It’s commercially available as Roundup, it was produced by Bayer, which is formerly known as Monsanto. Why did the Trump administration support the corporation and its position, a winning one before the Supreme Court, to protect them from further lawsuits? That does not sound like a MAHA principle.
CALLEY MEANS: No, it’s not. And Heidi Overton–
MARGARET BRENNAN: But it’s a MAGA principle?
CALLEY MEANS: No, it’s not. Heidi Overton led that process, working with the DOJ to write a brief to the Supreme Court, urging them to take a case to give this cancer-causing chemical, proven by many court cases that have been settled–
MARGARET BRENNAN: The EPA is still reviewing it.
CALLEY MEANS: Well, the press- [inaud] EPA review was thrown out because Bayer bribed people and ghost wrote research.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Bribed who?
CALLEY MEANS: This is documented. The- glyphosate hasn’t been reviewed in 30 years, and was up for review recently, a couple years ago, and that review was thrown out because Bayer ghost wrote research and bribed EPA officials.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is that happening now?
CALLEY MEANS: There’s huge problems at the EPA, which President Trump ran on fixing, and I hope we can. On the issue of the immunity, that happened because Heidi Overton, working with Susie’s team, worked with the DOJ to say from the administration that they should take that case without the consultation of Secretary Kennedy and without consulting President Trump.
(NOTE: A Senior White House official told CBS News that the solicitor general wrote the brief for the Supreme Court at the request of the court. The official also said that Dr. Overton did weigh in on the brief in the final stages but just made changes to “tone.” The Trump administration argued in court filings that federal standards supersede state-level liability claims, which was the same position taken by glyphosate-maker Monsanto, now known as Bayer).
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you’re talking about a lot of the staff that the public may not know, but they do know that there’s an EPA administration. Like there’s Lee Zeldin, there’s Brooke Rollins at the USDA, there’s an HHS secretary. Are they not involved in any of the details here?
CALLEY MEANS: The government is 2 million people. President Trump is the first president in American history to actually identify the problem that we are at the verge of institutional collapse with the breakdown and corruption of our institutions, and I think that’s a tremendous contribution. And now you have leading Democrats saying the exact same thing. So I think we do have an opportunity to fix this. Lee and Brooke talk to Bobby regularly, are aware of the problem and are trying to fix it. It is impossible to describe to you how large and broken these institutions are, and there are people in the government- and I will say, Lee and Brooke have been working really hard with Bobby to try to fix this. It is daunting. That is not an excuse for President Trump, but- but it’s just true. This is the civilizational, I think, challenge that we have as Americans, and that we need to realize that the issue and American competitiveness does not hinge on whether President Trump is in or out, or whether Stephen Miller is in or out. It hinges on fixing this institutional corruption of our systems that our Founders would be absolutely horrified by.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you think it’s right for congressional Democrats to hold hearings, issue subpoenas, call some of these folks forward?
CALLEY MEANS:I think it would be a massive mistake and part of a psyop for them to act like the only issue is getting President Trump out of office because that’s a lie and that’s just more of the same.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What about Secretary Kennedy?
CALLEY MEANS: The Congress has not passed- that it would be- it would be crazy for them to go after Secretary Kennedy. He’s the most popular public official in America, and they’re literally campaigning on the exact same things he campaigned on. Let me just finish the, let me just finish the point. It is- Americans need to understand if the Democratic investigations are primarily based in the thesis that the- the thing that will save America is whether President Trump is in or out of office, that is a lie, and we know that’s a lie. What I am describing with these people, and what I’m describing this institutional corruption is happening for decades, and it is a bipartisan issue. Right now, lobbying firms, you know, run by Senator Schumer’s former staffers, are filling up their coffers. This is a game. This is a game, and you have an interesting dynamic where President Trump, during the campaign, and the Democrats that are running without corporate money, many on the far left, are actually saying the same thing, which is that the most existential thing we need to address is institutional corruption. We would change the world if the Democrats spent some time actually working with Bobby Kennedy to ask, “why is the FDA using political interference to make drug decisions?” As Marty Makary can, you know, testify, it’s a political process. Americans should not be proud of how we’re making regulatory decisions. Why does- why hasn’t the EPA reviewed glyphosate in 30 years? Like the- like, like like can we spend a little bit of time? I don’t think I’m- I’m skeptical Congress is going to do it because they want, the Democrats and Republicans, they want to be debating left versus right, which is, which is a joke. They don’t want to be talking about the fundamental rot because that implicates them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you have identified here some of the Democrats you think you could possibly work with. Was it a strategic mistake for MAHA to align itself with Donald Trump and MAGA solely? I mean the MAHA PAC didn’t endorse a single Democrat. It’s all Republicans.
CALLEY MEANS: This is an imminently–
MARGARET BRENNAN: So now it’s partisan.
CALLEY MEANS: This is an imminently bipartisan issue, and has been noted many times. What Bobby Kennedy is saying is often what the left has been saying. That’s a good thing. I am very comfortable with the decision, you know, that Bobby Kennedy made to bring this to the right with President Trump. And I think actually historically it’s a great thing that the right is now animated on these issues, as the left is, too. And you know when you inject an issue into politics, it becomes toxic. You know, you agree with most of these issues, but the news basically just covers you know the edge cases, the toxic things, the questions. But there is a huge opportunity that the right is animated on the same issues the left is animated. And I will say we’re at a point right now where ultra-processed food is being declining. Americans are actually practicing healthy habits by many statistics. Like we’re actually waking up to this culturally. And I think the fact that Bobby Kennedy and President Trump on the right substantiated this has really moved that culture forward, and I think has been positive. Whether you’re left, right, or center, I think you’re thinking more about these issues, and I think President Trump and Bobby Kennedy deserve credit for that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But to this point, just report card-wise, the CBS exit polls showed 58% of those polled in these midterm races said the Trump administration policies have made the health and well-being of people in the U.S. worse, 58%. It also showed 47% of those who voted said Trump policies have made access to vaccines for children worse. Has it been a mistake to focus so much on vaccines and not publicly on the food issues and the things that you say are bipartisan?
CALLEY MEANS: Well, Bobby Kennedy focuses on the uniting bipartisan issues, so it’s not accurate that he’s just there talking about-
MARGARET BRENNAN: The executive orders have been about
CALLEY MEANS: Hold on, hold on–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –encouraging glyphosate and encouraging opting out of vaccines.
(CROSSTALK)
CALLEY MEANS: Let me, let me finish. The media focus a lot of vaccines. Just factually, that Bobby Kennedy 90% of his time is on issues that every American would be very proud of. I’ll say on vaccines, if we want to talk about that, right? I mentioned on the Joe Rogan podcast. Again, the FDA sent a study back on the Moderna mRNA vaccine, showing that there were deaths in the study group, and showing that it had a paltry absolute benefit, and that there were severe side effects, and they asked for another study to begin.
(NOTE: Calley Means confirmed to CBS after the interview that he was speaking about the Moderna mRNA flu vaccine, not the COVID vaccine).
(CROSS TALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is an approved vaccine by the FDA.
CALLEY MEANS: Yeah, no, no, no, no. It wasn’t approved. They sent it back because the data didn’t. What happened was Blackstone, who invested in this drug too, pounded calls. You had the lobbyists we all know pounding calls, and Heidi Overton was directed to reach into the FDA after Marty left and reverse that decision. And the head of vaccines at the FDA, Kaslow, David Kaslow, is the former head of vaccines for Merck. He wears an N95 mask and has the- “vaccinate” on his license plate. Very rich from Merck, and he put together an advisory committee of his friends, and they approved a vaccine that the FDA thought was not safe and effective. Now that’s being called safe and effective. I think Democrats, left, right, or center, would probably have questions. If Congress wants to investigate something, can we investigate political interference in our system? I’ll tell you, you know, as a parent, and as somebody who’s been attacked by people in the MAHA community because vaccines are not my main issue, I am deeply, deeply concerned with the corruption and political interference in drug approvals, including vaccines. And I think that’s a- I think that’s a worthwhile thing to discuss. And I think, frankly, an area where the Democrats should want to know what’s going on there.
(NOTE: The FDA did not respond to Face the Nation’s request for comment.
However, a U.S. health official told CBS news that any deaths that occur during the study of a vaccine or drug would be in the public record linked to the approval document reported to the FDA. The issue of death and safety signals did come up, and to argue there is a cover-up is false. In addition to the approval document, the issue was discussed publicly in the advisory committee and debated openly in June. There was no special advisory committee put together at the FDA to approve the vaccine. The FDA does not have evidence of collusion or conspiracy).
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we saw a record number of doctors and scientists run and win seats, and they’re going to be in the Democratic majority. Pediatrician Annie Andrews, doctor from South Carolina, she says RFK and impeaching him is one of her campaign promises. She said he’s been her archnemesis for decades, there are thousands of pediatricians across the country who would say the same thing. So isn’t this an example of the vaccine issue getting in the way of all these other health initiatives?
CALLEY MEANS: As I said, I think there’s very reasonable questions to ask about the corruption of the FDA, and I think it would be a mistake to–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –But RFK is the HHS secretary–
CALLEY MEANS: –Excuse me- can I? I think it would be a mistake to completely deny what’s clearly a growing crisis of trust among many Americans with the medical advice that we’re getting from the medical system after COVID. I do think there is a massive opportunity to get 90% issues done. I believe in D.C. the hardest issues to get done are actually the most popular issues that really go after structural reform and really go after special interests. I cannot find many examples of Congress passing a major bill in the past 20 years that has gone against special interests. So if they’re saying that they want to focus on real health reform, real reform that I think almost by definition has to take on some special interest. Bobby Kennedy’s there, and if they want to have him in and ask questions about how he’s gone about vaccines, I’m sure he’d be happy to have that conversation too.
(NOTE: We asked White House Chief of Staff Stephen Miller for additional context, as of broadcast air, he had not responded).
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