2026年10月11日 美国东部时间上午9:59 / 哥伦比亚广播公司新闻
2017年2月，他登上了《时代》杂志封面：时任白宫首席战略师史蒂夫·班农。人们称他为“伟大的操盘手”。他有时甚至威胁要盖过总统本人风头——这可不是什么明智的职业选择——而有一段时间，他明显失宠了。
史蒂文·班农，在特朗普总统首届任期不到一个月时就被冠以“伟大的操盘手”之名。《时代》杂志 配图
但时至今日，班农仍是特朗普的狂热支持者。“当特朗普决定主动退出舞台时，无人可以替代他，”他说道，“就像华盛顿或林肯一样，这些人都是能定义一个时代的人物。”
没错，班农将特朗普与华盛顿、林肯相提并论。“没错，我就是这么认为的，”他说，“我觉得他已经达到了那个级别。因为我认为华盛顿将军见证了这个国家的诞生；林肯实现了国家的重生；而我绝对相信（我认为99%的“让美国再次伟大”运动支持者也相信），特朗普见证了这个国家的救赎。”
班农有着坚定不移的信念。他因藐视国会入狱四个月，原因是拒绝就其在2022年1月6日美国国会大厦袭击事件中所扮演的角色作证（包括2021年1月5日对播客听众说“明天将会天下大乱”）。
他创办了极具影响力的播客“作战室”：上午两小时，晚上两小时。9月29日，我们就是在他的工作室里进行了这次采访。
班农显然对右翼阵营情有独钟。“毫无疑问，没错，”他说，“我是右翼分子，我不是保守派。我为自己是右翼分子感到自豪。”
这位“伟大的操盘手”据多数人透露，再次与总统保持着定期且友好的沟通。但班农并没有幻想。如果民主党在几周后掌控众议院，“让美国再次伟大”运动的时代将岌岌可危。他在播客中宣布：“如果我们输掉众议院，白宫就会变成‘阿帕奇堡’。”
班农向我们讲述了他眼中民主党获胜的后果：“我认为你会看到鲍比·肯尼迪被弹劾，我认为你会看到皮特·赫格斯被弹劾。我认为你会看到每天都有传票满天飞。他们会试图摧毁特朗普总统，而我们将陷入两年的泥潭。”
他认为这是今年投票给共和党的一个令人信服的理由——尽管民调显示，对大多数美国选民来说，这可能并不那么有说服力。“但你不需要赢得多数票，”班农辩称，“我对中期选举的看法是：记住，中期选举向来由基础选民投票率决定，以及基础选民动员更多低投票率选民的能力。”
班农对那些“准备好抛弃特朗普”的老牌共和党人的议程几乎不抱幻想，即便有也寥寥无几。但他不同意自己的未来会脱离特朗普主义。“首先，特朗普总统，我可以说我是推动特朗普总统竞选第三任期的领军人物，”班农说，“但看起来他要么不感兴趣，要么这事根本成不了。”
他并未承认特朗普竞选第三任期的想法违反了宪法第22修正案，该修正案规定总统任期不得超过两届。“哦，我觉得你可以开着卡车从那条修正案里穿过去，”他说，“我和宪法律师谈过，我认为有很多不同的替代方案。这会引发争议吗？当然会，因为特朗普做的每件事都会在法庭上遭到质疑。”
与伊朗的战争
总统也正面临着与他的前任一样的宿敌：衰老。但班农并不认为今年刚满80岁的特朗普总统已经力不从心。“哦，我不同意这种说法，”他说，并称总统每天工作20小时。他也不认为总统语无伦次的演讲（比如他最近暗示伊朗“拿下”洛杉矶或圣地亚哥）是不可理喻的。
“我不会称之为‘胡言乱语’，”班农说，“众所周知，特朗普总统有时会脱离讲稿。”
史蒂夫·班农。哥伦比亚广播公司新闻 配图
任何暗示美国人对特朗普感到尴尬的说法都会引来班农关于媒体偏见的指责。“泰德，如果你属于媒体精英，如果你属于东海岸精英，如果你是大西洋主义者，那么特朗普总统的所作所为，没错，你肯定不会喜欢，甚至可能会痛恨，”他说，“我明白这场战争是个大问题。但我认为工薪阶层美国人并不感到尴尬。他们支持特朗普总统以及他展现美国的方式。”
尽管民调显示大多数美国人反对与伊朗开战，班农却说：“我们可以把这场战争分开来看。如果你看看第一阶段，也就是12天的战争，以及特朗普总统彻底摧毁他们的核计划……”
当记者打断他，指出伊朗的核能力并未被“彻底”摧毁时，班农回应道：“我认为摧毁程度已经足够了。我们现在正在通过斯科特·贝桑特发起的经济战拖垮他们的经济，鉴于他对伊朗货币的操作，以及对石油的封锁。”
电影的力量
采访史蒂夫·班农偶尔还是会带来惊喜。如果说民主社会主义者有时会提出让传统民主党候选人感到难堪的立场，那么班农总能在赞扬反对党的同时，为共和党找到隐藏的优势。“这些人非常专注，”他说，“有些候选人可能完全脱离主流，但他们有一套地面行动策略，人们必须明白，他们有 dedicated 的支持者，而且他们会 turnout 自己的选票。”（注：原文此处为英文，保留以还原原文排版）
班农提醒我，他是通过为茶党制作电影进入政坛的：“我有自己独特的视角，”他说，“非常民粹主义，非常民族主义。批评者说：‘嘿，这是法西斯主义电影。’然后我说：‘听着，莱妮·里芬斯塔尔是有史以来最有影响力的电影制作人之一。’”
的确如此。里芬斯塔尔让纳粹看起来充满神话色彩。她在1936年柏林奥运会和纳粹阅兵式上拍摄的纪录片，如《意志的胜利》，影响了数十年来的电影制作人，其中就包括班农。在艾莉森·克莱曼2019年的纪录片《悬崖边缘》中，班农曾问道：“莱妮·里芬斯塔尔会怎么做？莱妮会如何剪辑这个场景？”
但最重要的是，里芬斯塔尔作为希特勒的形象塑造者而闻名。“她毫无道德可言，她是为纳粹拍摄电影的，但她的电影非常有感染力，”班农说，“而我当时试图做的，是重现那些电影的感染力，让人们，尤其是小人物，明白他们可以拥有话语权。”
在过去九年里，史蒂夫·班农与欧洲各地的极右翼运动建立了联系。2018年3月，他在法国国民阵线党的年度大会上发表演讲，对玛丽娜·勒庞和她的追随者说：“你们是一场全球性运动的一部分，这场运动比法国更大，比意大利更大，比匈牙利更大，比所有这一切都更大。”
他还与德国强烈反移民的选择党关系密切，该党最近在一次州选举中以压倒性优势获胜。“德国选择党如今就在这里给我们上课，”他说，“他们蛰伏起来，然后挨家挨户地游说，他们没有竞选资金，却用我们的路线、我们的政策——重新工业化德国、停止大规模移民、重新移民——来说服人们，你们应该投票支持这些政策。我认为我们可以从他们身上学到很多东西。”
法西斯主义的问题
当被问及美国如今是否正在走向法西斯主义时，班农回答：“这不是法西斯主义。这实际上更具包容性，更具企业家精神。这根本不是法西斯主义。记住，我们通过投票箱获胜。‘让美国再次伟大’运动只在2018年佩洛西当选的那次选举中失利。‘让美国再次伟大’运动的核心信念是，我们赢得了2020年的选举。”
但特朗普总统确实输掉了2020年的选举。“那不是真的，我们赢了！”班农大声说道。
事实上，乔·拜登获胜了。“那不是真的，”班农反驳道。
“作战室”播客主持人史蒂夫·班农与《周日早间》高级撰稿人泰德·科普尔。哥伦比亚广播公司新闻 配图
当被问及超过60起法院案件，所有这些案件特朗普都在声称选举舞弊的情况下败诉时，班农回应：“我们可以改天再辩论这个，但我们没有诉讼资格。我们甚至从未进入过法庭。”
班农的说法在技术上是正确的；他们确实没有诉讼资格。找不到任何一位法官认为他们有值得审理的重大案件。因此，六年来他们一直在一遍又一遍地重复同样的话。
但随着中期选举临近，班农被问及他会如何赌选举结果。“我会把我们所有的筹码都推到桌子中间，说：‘伙计们，没有退路，胜利无可替代。让我们拼命战斗，’”他说。
他是不是在暗示共和党输不起？“哦，我们输不起。我对此毫无疑问，”他说——证实他会不惜一切代价赢得这场战斗。“没错。”
网络独家内容：https://www.cbsnews.com/video/extended-interview-steve-bannon/
Steve Bannon on the GOP and the midterms: “We can’t afford to lose”
October 11, 2026 9:59 AM EDT / CBS News
There he was, in February 2017, on the cover of Time Magazine: Steve Bannon, chief White House strategist. They called him “The Great Manipulator.” He threatened at times to overshadow the president himself – not the best career move – and for a while he visibly fell out of favor.
Steven Bannon, dubbed “The Great Manipulator” less than one month into President Trump’s first term. Time Magazine
To this day, though, Bannon remains a passionate Trump supporter. “When Trump decides to leave the stage actively, he can’t be replaced,” he said. “Like Washington or Lincoln, these are people that they name the age of.”
Yes, Bannon mentions Trump in the same breath as Washington and Lincoln. “Oh, I am,” he said. “I think he’s at that level. Because I think General Washington was there at the birth of the nation; Lincoln was the rebirth of the nation; and I absolutely believe (and I think 99% of MAGA believes) that Trump was there for the salvation of the nation.”
Bannon is a man of unwavering commitment. He did four months in prison for contempt of Congress, for refusing to testify about his role in the events leading up to the January 6 assault on the U.S. Capitol (including telling podcast listeners on Jan. 5, 2021, “All hell is going to break loose tomorrow”).
He set up an influential podcast, “War Room”: Two hours in the morning, two hours in the evening. It was in his studio where, on September 29, we sat down for an interview.
Bannon clearly has a taste for the right wing. “Definitely, it’s no doubt,” he said. “I am right wing; I’m not conservative. I’m a right-winger and proud of it.”
The Great Manipulator is, by most accounts, once again in regular and amicable communication with the president. But Bannon has no illusions. If Democrats gain control of the House in a couple of weeks, the “Age of MAGA” is in jeopardy. On his podcast he announced, “If we lose the House, it’s going to turn the White House into Fort Apache.”
Bannon told us what he sees as the repercussions of a Democratic victory: “I think you’ll see Bobby Kennedy impeached, I’ll think you see Pete Hegseth impeached. I think you’ll see subpoenas flying every day. They will look to destroy President Trump, and we’ll be bogged down for two years.”
He believes that is a compelling argument to vote Republican this year – though polls show it may not be so compelling to the majority of American voters. “But you don’t need the majority,” Bannon argues. “Here’s my point on the midterm: Remember, midterm elections are always driven by base getting out, and the base’s ability to get more of their low-propensity voters out.”
Bannon has few, if any, illusions about the agenda of old-line Republicans who are “all set for getting beyond Trump.” But he disagrees that his own future lies beyond Trumpism. “First off, President Trump, I would say I’m the leader of trying to get President Trump to run for a third term,” Bannon said. “It appears that he’s not interested or it just won’t happen.”
He does not admit that the idea of a third term for Mr. Trump runs counter to the 22nd Amendment of the Constitution limiting a president to two terms. “Oh, I think you could drive a truck through that amendment,” he said. “I talked to constitutional lawyers, and there were, I think, a number of different alternatives. Would it be contested? Yeah, it’d be contested, because everything Trump does is contested in the courts.”
The war with Iran
The president is also confronting the same nemesis as his predecessor: old age. But Bannon does not see President Trump, who turned 80 this year, as having lost a step or two. “Oh, I don’t agree with that,” he said, claiming that the president works 20 hours a day. Nor does he dismiss the president’s rambling speeches (such as his recent suggestion that Iran “take out” Los Angeles or San Diego).
“I would not call them ‘drivel,’” Bannon said. “President Trump has been known to go off-script.”
Steve Bannon. CBS News
Any suggestion that Americans are embarrassed by Mr. Trump leads Bannon to draw accusations of media bias. “Ted, if you’re part of the media elite, if you’re a part of the East Coast elite, if you a Atlanticist, what President Trump has done, yes, you’re not going to like it and probably you’re going to hate it,” he said. “I understand this war is a huge issue. But I think working-class Americans are not embarrassed. They’re supportive of President Trump and how he presents the United States.”
Despite polls that show a majority of Americans oppose the war with Iran, Bannon said, “Let’s bifurcate the war. If you look at the first part, the 12-day war, and President Trump, the total obliteration of their nuclear program …”
Interrupted with the knowledge that Iran’s nuclear capabilities have not been “totally” obliterated, Bannon replied, “I believe it’s obliterated enough. What we’re doing is tearing down their economy through economic warfare of Scott Bessant, given what he’s doing with their currency, given the blockade on the oil.”
The power of film
Interviewing Steve Bannon still offers the occasional surprise. If the Democratic Socialists sometimes offer positions that make more traditional Democratic candidate wince, count on Bannon to find hidden advantage for Republicans, while seeming to praise the opposition. “These people are very focused,” he said. “Some of the candidates may stay way outside the mainstream, but they have a ground game that people have to understand that they have dedicated people and they’re going to turn out their vote.”
Bannon reminded me that he got into politics making films for the Tea Party: “I had a very particular take on it,” he said. “It was very populist, very nationalistic. Critics came and said, ‘Hey, this is fascist filmmaking.’ And I said, ‘Look, Leni Riefenstahl was one of the most powerful filmmakers ever.’”
Indeed, she was. Riefenstahl made the Nazis look mythical. Her coverage of military parades and the Berlin Olympics of 1936, in films such as “Triumph of the Will,” has influenced filmmakers for decades, among them Bannon. In Alison Klayman’s 2019 documentary “The Brink,” Bannon was heard asking, “What would Leni Riefenstahl do? How would Leni cut that scene?
But most of all, Riefenstahl was known as Hitler’s image-maker. “She was amoral, and she was a filmmaker for the Nazis, but her films were very powerful,” said Bannon. “And what I was trying to do is to try to recreate the power of those films to make sure that people, particularly the little guy, understood that they could have a voice.”
Over the past nine years Steve Bannon has cultivated ties with far-right movements across Europe. In March 2018, he spoke before the French National Front party’s annual congress, telling Marine Le Pen and her followers, “You’re part of a worldwide movement that is bigger than France, bigger than Italy, bigger than Hungary, bigger than all of it.”
He is also close to Germany’s fiercely anti-immigrant party, the AfD, which recently won a state election in a landslide. “Alternative for Deutschland is now here to teach us,” he said. “They went to ground, and what they did is they went door-to-door, and they convinced people with no campaign money, that our way, our policies is to re-industrialize Germany, stop this mass immigration, re-migration, are policies you should vote for. I think we can learn a lot from them.
A question of fascism
Asked if the United States is moving toward fascism today, Bannon replied, “It’s not fascism. It’s actually more inclusionary, it’s more entrepreneurial. It’s not fascism at all. Remember if you go back, we win at the ballot box. The MAGA movement has only lost the Pelosi election of ’18. The core belief of the MAGA movement is we won the 2020 election.”
Except President Trump lost the 2020 election. “That’s not true. We won!” Bannon exclaimed.
Actually, Joe Biden won. “It’s not true,” Bannon contested.
“War Room” host Steve Bannon with “Sunday Morning” senior contributor Ted Koppel. CBS News
When faced with more than 60 court cases, all of which Mr. Trump lost while alleging election fraud, Bannon replied, “We can go debate this another time, but we didn’t have standing. We never even got into court.”
Bannon’s technically correct; they didn’t have standing. They couldn’t find a judge who thought they had a significant case worth hearing. So, for six years they’ve just kept saying the same thing over and over.
But with the midterms upon us, Bannon was asked how he would bet on the outcome. “I would push all our chips in the middle of the table and say, ‘Guys, there’s no retreat, and there’s no substitute for victory. Let’s fight like hell,’” he said.
Is he suggesting that Republicans can’t afford to lose? “Oh, we can’t afford to lose. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that,” he said – affirming that he will do whatever it takes to win the fight. “Exactly.”
WEB EXCLUSIVE: https://www.cbsnews.com/video/extended-interview-steve-bannon/
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